output

0:00

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hello hello hello how are you doing hi

0:04

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i'm okay how are you okay so thank you yeah

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am i the first person you've spoken to at class dojo or do you speak to the recruiter

0:13

S… Speaker 1 (output)

no the first person yeah okay okay

0:17

S… Speaker 3 (output)

great well welcome nice to meet you my name is brian thank you hi

0:22

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brian i'm lucas yeah here from brazil nice to

0:26

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meet you there's an artist that i work with in brazil so uh

0:29

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Yeah, love Brazil.

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I've never been there before,

0:34

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but hope to one day.

0:35

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Yeah,

0:35

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sure.

0:36

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It's going to be amazing.

0:37

S… Speaker 3 (output)

So I could give you a quick

0:41

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overview of what to expect in this interview.

0:44

S… Speaker 3 (output)

And yeah,

0:46

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I'll start with that.

0:46

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So we could do just some quick introductions for the first five minutes.

0:50

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And then we'll do about 35 minutes of questions.

0:54

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I see we're 45 minute interview.

0:58

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So we'll finish up at 10 a .m.

0:59

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Pacific time.

1:01

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So I want to leave you at least five minutes at the end to ask questions if you have any questions

1:05

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for me.

1:05

S… Speaker 3 (output)

How does that sound?

1:07

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Perfect.

1:08

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Yeah.

1:08

S… Speaker 2 (output)

Okay.

1:09

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Nice. Okay,

1:10

S… Speaker 3 (output)

great. So I could go first.

1:13

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My introduction.

1:13

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My name is Brian Cronin.

1:14

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I've been working on games for about 20 years or so.

1:17

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I've worked on a lot of smaller indie games,

1:21

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games up on Steam.

1:24

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The most popular one I've worked on,

1:26

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not a mega,

1:26

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mega big game,

1:27

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but some people know it.

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It's called Monster Train.

1:30

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It's a hard game.

1:32

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Worked on a lot of other,

1:34

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you know,

1:35

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strategy games,

1:36

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action games like that.

1:38

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And then I joined Class Dojo almost four years

1:42

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ago, and I work on Dojo Islands.

1:44

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So the game,

1:45

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have you seen much of the game yet?

1:47

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Did you get a chance to play it or see videos of it or anything?

1:49

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I did play it.

1:50

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I saw the Dojo Island game,

1:51

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yeah. Okay,

1:53

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great.

1:54

S… Speaker 3 (output)

Yeah, I've been working on that the whole time I've been here.

1:56

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We have a relatively small team.

1:58

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There's about,

1:59

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I think about 13 engineers and then,

2:02

S… Speaker 2 (output)

you know,

2:03

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some product managers and designers.

2:05

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There's probably about 20 or 25 people on the team,

2:09

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depending on how you count it.

2:10

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So relatively small.

2:12

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For Dojo Island, right?

2:13

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Yeah,

2:15

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for Dojo Island.

2:15

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ClassDojo as a company is bigger.

2:18

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I don't know the exact full -time headcount,

2:20

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but...

2:21

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Maybe around 160 or so is my guess.

2:25

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So still a relatively small company.

2:27

S… Speaker 2 (output)

Yeah,

2:29

S… Speaker 3 (output)

and the ClassDojo,

2:30

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it has a few businesses.

2:32

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It has its core app,

2:33

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which is used in schools to communicate.

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Parents and teachers communicate in schools using it.

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Very heavily used in the United States,

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used in other English -speaking languages,

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and slowly growing in other regions of the world.

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And then there's a tutoring system in ClassDojo.

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So it helps tutors link up with students for teaching.

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And there is a learning app called Sparks where kids can learn

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how to read.

2:59

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And then Dojo Islands is the other big one in there.

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Anyway, it gives you a very broad overview,

3:06

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but that's my introduction.

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I'm a software engineer,

3:09

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if that wasn't clear,

3:10

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but how about yourself?

3:12

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Yeah,

3:13

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so yeah, I've been working with Unity for the past,

3:16

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I think, like six years.

3:19

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And then I started with this small company here in Brazil,

3:24

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in my state,

3:24

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which we basically did like serious games for corporate training.

3:28

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So we used a bunch of AR,

3:30

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VR, mobile,

3:32

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WebGL.

3:32

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It was cool because we attacked this bunch of different areas,

3:36

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right? So basically more for this big companies for training

3:41

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their employees and get some data,

3:43

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how much they fail,

3:44

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how much time they spent and stuff like that.

3:46

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So because the place for...

3:48

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too hazardous like mold and steel or super confined

3:52

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space so it was uh better to simulate this this places instead

3:56

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of putting them at those risks uh also doing that

4:01

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and basically you know a small company like that you own everything right so

4:05

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we need this project this confined space simulation you do everything in build gameplay ui

4:09

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testing talking with clients so that i think this uh molded

4:13

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me a bit how and how i work like super

4:17

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generalist you always start like that even in a small company right yeah

4:21

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and then uh i moved on after

4:26

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some time to this entertainment more entertainment area not more

4:30

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basically entertainment area which was in this company called blue gravity studios

4:34

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uh there i worked at like two games one was a cookie clicker

4:38

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game called albert ark and the other was a football manager

4:42

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simulation called draft fever ball

4:45

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but i spent like one month at the albert ark i

4:50

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joined it like mostly at the end of it and then i

4:54

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spent like one month there let's just bug fixing stuff and then

4:58

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it entered

5:00

S… Speaker 2 (output)

It's hard to get on the hiatus, right?

5:04

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Then later it released,

5:05

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but it wasn't on there anymore.

5:07

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And then I joined this Dread Fever Ball,

5:10

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which I think was one of the coolest experiences that I

5:14

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had, because I could work with a bigger team,

5:16

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and like 3D people,

5:18

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testing people,

5:19

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like every role,

5:22

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like managers,

5:23

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because I didn't have this experience in the past,

5:24

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right? And it was really cool to work alongside these guys.

5:29

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So basically there...

5:30

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I spent most time UI and systems,

5:33

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so we need a UI for creating your team.

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So dragging cards,

5:37

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putting on the field and instantiating characters.

5:40

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And alongside this,

5:42

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saving this data,

5:43

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sending this data to the backend and stuff like that.

5:46

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And so we need this UI and doing the systems behind

5:51

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it. I think the coolest thing that I did there that I remember.

5:55

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It's like the character generator because the game was a

6:00

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simulation, realistic visuals,

6:02

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right? So neat random characters.

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So how to make it like believable,

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right? You had a bunch of land shapes,

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you have a bunch of skin tones,

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hair,

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high color,

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hair color,

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facial hair.

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so defining constraints for the generator was really

6:20

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cool so we need a black person so you have these constraints these blend shapes that

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you can randomize and these skin tones etc etc

6:29

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etc and it was really cool and the other thing cool was

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the customization i think two big responsibilities maybe

6:37

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big in

6:40

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important, I guess,

6:41

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the generator and the customization.

6:44

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So it could customize the helmets,

6:47

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jerseys,

6:48

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patterns,

6:49

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colors, everything to the characters and the whole

6:53

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team. You could do separated or in general.

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And it was really fun working with

7:00

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addressables.

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management managing this kind of generation and stuff like that and

7:06

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the UI as well and the systems everything alongside together and

7:11

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then to the my recent experience is like it's

7:15

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a nurture it's a mobile game it's an educational game it's

7:20

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more I don't know if it's maybe alongside the the

7:24

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lines of class Dojo or maybe Dojo Island because

7:27

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uh maybe not but it's like educational game but it's not like school subjects it's more like

7:32

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real life skills that they call right so sure if you're nervous uh

7:36

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take a deep breath or okay you did something you receive money for

7:40

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it so this is a job like real life stuff that they call and

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there i joined one in the beginning i did more of the mid games like drag

7:48

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and dropping creating a car like putting wheels putting spoilers

7:52

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drawing on the character

7:56

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mini games stuff like that so because the game is based on cinematics just

8:00

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like a cartoon that's like that but 3d right uh

8:05

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playable director stuff like that and then you have a mini game and then you watch again a

8:09

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mini game so basically these steps and then they wanted to

8:13

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like ah let's revamp the whole ui and then uh

8:18

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i took care of doing that so they had

8:21

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revamped visually and we took advantage to uh improve a

8:25

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bit of the systems using a bit of state machine based approach to the

8:29

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instantiation of the UIs and then uh

8:34

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we did that did like a breakpoint system as well because they want slightly

8:39

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different visuals for tablets and

8:42

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And widescreen fonts that Unity Scaler can't handle

8:47

S… Speaker 2 (output)

it because the sizes were somewhat different.

8:49

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Yeah, I'm familiar with that world.

8:51

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Yeah.

8:52

S… Speaker 2 (output)

So let's do a breakpoint system like they use in websites,

8:54

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right? You start decreasing the size and change abruptly.

8:57

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Something like that.

8:58

S… Speaker 2 (output)

It's different designs,

8:59

S… Speaker 1 (output)

right? Visuals.

9:00

S… Speaker 2 (output)

And then right now where

9:04

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I'm standing is like doing...

9:06

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implementation on Twitter for SMS,

9:08

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deep links,

9:10

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using apps flyer,

9:11

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revenue cash implementation,

9:14

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let's see,

9:16

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push notifications,

9:17

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sign in with Google,

9:19

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like these smaller systems.

9:21

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Yeah,

9:23

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I think I summarized it pretty well.

9:25

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

9:26

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No, that's more than enough.

9:28

S… Speaker 1 (output)

That gives me a good overview.

9:30

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Yeah.

9:31

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Okay,

9:31

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so.

9:32

S… Speaker 1 (output)

I guess if we were to focus on your most recent role,

9:36

S… Speaker 1 (output)

that's on Nurture.

9:38

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Yeah.

9:39

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What originally were you hired to

9:43

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do?

9:44

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What were you brought on to help out with?

9:46

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If you could give me some context of the team itself,

9:49

S… Speaker 1 (output)

like how many people,

9:50

S… Speaker 1 (output)

who were you working with?

9:51

S… Speaker 1 (output)

And then,

9:52

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you know, I guess you've been there for a

9:56

S… Speaker 1 (output)

little over a year.

9:57

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Yeah.

9:57

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Yeah.

9:58

S… Speaker 1 (output)

So how is your role?

10:00

S… Speaker 1 (output)

changed over time?

10:01

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How has your responsibility changed over time?

10:03

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If you could speak to that.

10:04

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Yeah,

10:05

S… Speaker 2 (output)

cool. They wanted like a Unity engineer and the

10:10

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blog,

10:11

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the posting was really big and it described everything possible in the

10:15

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world. And I was like,

10:17

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okay, let's try it.

10:18

S… Speaker 2 (output)

And then when they hired me,

10:20

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it's like just engineer,

10:21

S… Speaker 2 (output)

not like specifics like you do UI,

10:23

S… Speaker 1 (output)

you do gameplay.

10:23

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So I first asked in first months,

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I assigned to do this.

10:29

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gameplay so mini games and stuff like that and then it changes

10:33

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based on basically i think it's like the necessity oh

10:37

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this system's bugged or we need this system we have lucas available maybe

10:42

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he's finishing this so he can get that so this it's ui

10:46

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it's uh bug fixing an adventure that i never messed with so enter

10:50

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there and fix it

10:52

S… Speaker 2 (output)

and yeah pretty let's say random right something like that uh

10:57

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and yeah it started with gameplay then ui and then

11:01

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i'm thinking systems uh implementation of uh third -party tools

11:05

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and uh ui but as you asked about the team the

11:10

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team it was it was bigger before we had like counting me

11:14

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we had like four unity developers and and they lead

11:18

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we had two testers at some point 3d

11:23

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guys animators as well the

11:28

S… Speaker 2 (output)

technical more technical guys that implement particles stuff like that

11:32

S… Speaker 2 (output)

managers product managers

11:36

S… Speaker 2 (output)

so more closer to me two days like have counting

11:41

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me three developers one tester

11:44

S… Speaker 2 (output)

Out of these three developers,

11:45

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one is the lead,

11:46

S… Speaker 2 (output)

right, that do the planning,

11:48

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take the decisions,

11:49

S… Speaker 2 (output)

and a manager as

11:54

S… Speaker 2 (output)

well. Yeah,

11:56

S… Speaker 2 (output)

around me, this,

11:57

S… Speaker 2 (output)

and one QA,

11:58

S… Speaker 2 (output)

one tester.

11:59

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Okay.

12:00

S… Speaker 1 (output)

So it sounds like it started larger and it's scaled back since then.

12:04

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Originally,

12:04

S… Speaker 1 (output)

maybe there were 10 or 12 people,

12:07

S… Speaker 1 (output)

maybe?

12:07

S… Speaker 2 (output)

Yeah, around that.

12:08

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Something like that?

12:08

S… Speaker 2 (output)

Yeah,

12:10

S… Speaker 2 (output)

at some point it had like...

12:12

S… Speaker 2 (output)

50 % layoff.

12:14

S… Speaker 2 (output)

Good, right?

12:15

S… Speaker 2 (output)

And I was the one with was good.

12:17

S… Speaker 2 (output)

And then they brought me back as a freelance.

12:19

S… Speaker 2 (output)

So I'm there as a freelancer.

12:21

S… Speaker 1 (output)

I see.

12:22

S… Speaker 1 (output)

OK.

12:24

S… Speaker 1 (output)

So it

12:28

S… Speaker 1 (output)

sounds like you worked on a lot of different projects at this company.

12:33

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What's one thing you would highlight that you're most proud of just technically?

12:37

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Some challenge that you maybe

12:41

S… Speaker 1 (output)

It doesn't even need to be so technical.

12:43

S… Speaker 1 (output)

It could be like the polish you put in for the player.

12:46

S… Speaker 1 (output)

What's the thing that you'd highlight as the thing you're most proud of that you contributed to?

12:50

S… Speaker 2 (output)

At this company,

12:52

S… Speaker 2 (output)

it wasn't anything like super technical,

12:55

S… Speaker 2 (output)

super like,

12:56

S… Speaker 2 (output)

oh, this was super hard and I'm happy that I did it.

13:00

S… Speaker 2 (output)

But I think it could be the whole UI revamp because

13:04

S… Speaker 2 (output)

it was the whole game.

13:07

S… Speaker 2 (output)

and it was really cool to do it and took a bunch of time and testing

13:11

S… Speaker 2 (output)

as well because it's not like they added this new button here

13:16

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or moved stuff around and okay now this the ui can you

13:20

S… Speaker 2 (output)

can go here but if this happens this needs to happen like a bunch of branching

13:24

S… Speaker 1 (output)

off right uh possible and this is for the football game you're

13:29

S… Speaker 1 (output)

referring to no no this is nurture so this is nurture if it's global can

13:33

S… Speaker 2 (output)

i say about like in all experience or just nurture

13:37

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Yeah, I mean, if you have something that goes back prior to Nurture,

13:40

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you can highlight that if you want.

13:42

S… Speaker 2 (output)

Okay, okay.

13:42

S… Speaker 2 (output)

Yeah, I think it was the...

13:44

S… Speaker 2 (output)

Okay, if it's global,

13:45

S… Speaker 2 (output)

I think it's stuff that I did on Red Fever,

13:48

S… Speaker 2 (output)

on Blue Gravity.

13:49

S… Speaker 2 (output)

It was the generation.

13:51

S… Speaker 2 (output)

of character for sure because there you

13:55

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have to mess with they were using Unity's hair system which

13:59

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is like not really released and as the

14:03

S… Speaker 2 (output)

last time I saw it wasn't really updated they use it for I think Unity 6

14:07

S… Speaker 2 (output)

launch trailer

14:08

S… Speaker 2 (output)

uh it's there has system based on strengths and we started using

14:13

S… Speaker 2 (output)

that and it was really heavy you couldn't instantiate instantiate that all

14:17

S… Speaker 2 (output)

the strengths would be everywhere uh really

14:21

S… Speaker 2 (output)

heavy scene uh and then

14:24

S… Speaker 2 (output)

we need to really get around this and try to uh work

14:29

S… Speaker 2 (output)

around this part of generating the the hair system because if

14:33

S… Speaker 2 (output)

you you need to you need to test right because some things just happen on builds

14:37

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so instead of guy the guy having hair it was like a big magenta

14:41

S… Speaker 2 (output)

spot on his top of his head for some reason and then okay let's wait some frames

14:45

S… Speaker 2 (output)

let's try doing this this and that and that i think it was really

14:49

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complicated and cool at the same time that I was glad I

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could finish it.

14:56

S… Speaker 1 (output)

What was something that you needed to do to...

15:00

S… Speaker 2 (output)

Sound like you had this hair system that wasn't quite ready for

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games that were going to ship with it.

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What were some things you did to constrain it or to make it

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work for you in the system?

15:11

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Yeah,

15:13

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I didn't.

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had to change the system itself.

15:16

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I need to learn and work around it,

15:20

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its limitations and learn about it and like seeing

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people having the same problem on issues,

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GitHub issues and don't have any answers.

15:29

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So,

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okay, I need to work around this.

15:32

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Let's wait a bit more.

15:33

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Let's see with these configurations how it's working out.

15:37

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Let's try to read.

15:38

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and anything that could give us an idea right so what's

15:42

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happening so it was in this case it was based more on the super

15:47

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like heavy testing like try and error full fully try an

15:51

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error uh to to get it it working

15:55

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and uh okay this get it working then documentate

15:59

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document this okay it needs to be used like that you really can change this

16:03

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because this is gonna happen and talking with directly with the 3d

16:07

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guys okay the we plant this hair here uh maybe

16:12

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you could decrease a bit of the strands because it's getting too heavy it's like that so

16:16

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yeah more trying there

16:20

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Okay, sounds like there were kind of physical properties of

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this hair that you could tweak.

16:25

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So a lot of it was about tweaking these properties until it was behaving the way you

16:29

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wanted. Yeah,

16:30

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and we need to use that to take

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the screenshots of the players as well.

16:36

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So I learned that on this part that...

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it was partially implemented so it was generating a texture

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and saving it to the hard drive generating textures for

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every screenshot okay we don't need to do that we can use just one and just keep uh

16:54

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reusing that that object right so not create a texture 2d every

16:58

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time so okay but why

17:02

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doing that we still have a texture on memory so

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even though we're not using that anymore we left that scene long ago

17:10

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so basically Unity doesn't clean

17:14

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I don't think it's the texture or anything that inherits from texture that

17:18

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it doesn't...

17:19

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For it to clean,

17:20

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you need to color destroy on it and then set it to no so C -Sharp can

17:24

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use the garbage collector and get everything.

17:26

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So it's another code thing to learn as well.

17:29

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So yeah,

17:30

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everything related to the generation was some challenge after

17:35

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the year. Yeah,

17:36

S… Speaker 2 (output)

there's no automatic garbage collection on the textures that you generate.

17:40

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Yeah.

17:40

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:42

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Okay, great.

17:43

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All right,

17:44

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I wanted to move into a,

17:45

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so this question is,

17:47

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let me just get it up here on my screen.

17:48

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This is kind of a role play experiment.

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So it's pretend that I'm a designer and I'm coming to you.

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And I have this new project I want to work on.

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And I'm going to give you some somewhat vague idea of what I want.

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And I want you just to dig into like,

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ask me questions,

18:03

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start to,

18:04

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you know.

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theorize how you might technically design this project.

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We're not going to do any coding or anything.

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It's more just a conversation.

18:12

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And so that's the setup.

18:14

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Does that make sense?

18:15

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OK,

18:16

S… Speaker 1 (output)

OK.

18:16

S… Speaker 1 (output)

OK,

18:17

S… Speaker 2 (output)

so all right.

18:20

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So the game I want to build will allow players to control a character in a 3D space,

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kind of a third person game.

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They can interact with objects in the world and each other.

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They will be playing on phones and tablets primarily.

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And we want to ensure the game is fun for players and feels nice and it

18:39

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works in almost any networking environment.

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Some of our players will be in regions of the world that don't have

18:44

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the best networking.

18:45

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We also want players to be able to create content

18:50

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for the game.

18:50

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So that's the basic idea.

18:53

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If you want to write any of that down or if you have questions about any of that,

18:57

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if you want to repeat any of that,

18:58

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let me know.

18:58

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But what are some of the questions you might ask to help start the

19:02

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technical design of this?

19:04

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Yeah, I think I would ask if the character

19:08

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can do anything more than interacting if it has some fighting

19:12

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or traversal or verticality and

19:16

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then I would ask how does the gameplay feels

19:21

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because I don't have this much experience with networking just personal small

19:25

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projects but this can define

19:28

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the approach of the networking that we could use,

19:32

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right?

19:32

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So it's fast moving stuff or just basically a social hub,

19:36

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right?

19:37

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Yeah,

19:38

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sure.

19:38

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Yeah.

19:39

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Let me give you some answers to that so you have that context.

19:42

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Yeah, so the characters will be able to move around and see each other.

19:47

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They won't be able to collide with each other.

19:49

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There'll be some objects in the world they can interact with.

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So a good example would be a door that players can open and close and move

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through. They will not be moving too quickly.

20:00

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If you think about a normal character,

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walk speed or not even sprinting,

20:05

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maybe a light run.

20:06

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So they're not moving too quickly and they could jump and there's,

20:08

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you know, things they could jump on top of.

20:10

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So hopefully that helps you narrow down a little bit.

20:14

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Yeah. What other questions do you have?

20:17

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uh so okay that i imagine it's just like a more of a social thing

20:21

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that people can interact with each other so like if

20:26

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we have uh so the cards doesn't collide so this is easier because you don't need to

20:30

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worry about much of them colliding with each other or board blocking but

20:35

S… Speaker 1 (output)

maybe uh how is the environment maybe um

20:39

S… Speaker 1 (output)

let me think about it

20:43

S… Speaker 1 (output)

So you said something about they

20:47

S… Speaker 1 (output)

could play on mobile devices.

20:49

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Most targeted mobile devices.

20:52

S… Speaker 1 (output)

So let me think about it.

20:55

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What questions do they do?

21:00

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So what is the controls where I'd set it?

21:03

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Jumping, moving around,

21:04

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interacting.

21:05

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So not that many of buttons.

21:08

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Maybe we have some chat system or some reactions

21:12

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as well.

21:14

S… Speaker 1 (output)

So we could implement that.

21:15

S… Speaker 1 (output)

Yeah,

21:16

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we're definitely going to want some kind of just emojis players can display above their

21:20

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head. There's not going to be any free form chatting or voice chat,

21:23

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but there will be light communication players can do with emojis.

21:30

S… Speaker 1 (output)

So the situation is me asking a designer questions about

21:35

S… Speaker 1 (output)

how we could do this implementation,

21:38

S… Speaker 1 (output)

right? Yeah,

21:40

S… Speaker 2 (output)

yeah. We're trying to,

21:41

S… Speaker 2 (output)

you know, like if you're considering what game engine to

21:45

S… Speaker 2 (output)

use, what technology,

21:46

S… Speaker 2 (output)

if anything related to networking,

21:48

S… Speaker 2 (output)

to, you know,

21:50

S… Speaker 2 (output)

physics.

21:51

S… Speaker 2 (output)

There's any number of ways to explore this,

21:54

S… Speaker 2 (output)

but yeah,

21:56

S… Speaker 2 (output)

it's a pretty open -ended.

21:58

S… Speaker 1 (output)

question yeah uh maybe if it's a place

22:02

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and it needs to play it on uh on my devices how

22:07

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we're gonna could approach the visuals for example right the the

22:11

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graphics uh the the world situation is like a uh

22:15

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open world or based on on levels that players

22:19

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can switch between here and there so that maybe would be easier

22:24

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to to control uh

22:26

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to have this uh control of the graphics because you need to be worrying

22:31

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about that so if the the place has a limitation for

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