Recording_150

0:00

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

So there is no cover in the event of the ship is hit by a rocket or if it's a rocket. And then the owner has to look to their war risk insurance. Of course, everyone these days has war risk insurance. So war risk is kind of separate? Yes, what war risk is.

0:29

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

For a ship owner, they will ensure the hull with the hull machinery and the P&I with the P&I. Yes sir. So you are covered when you are taking anywhere. Finally, if you go into a war risk zone, then the hull machinery will last for additional war risk premium. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. So in the event that the best is...

0:51

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

hits a mine, or it's attacked by a rocket, or some other war, then P&I cover is excluded, because our rules say we do not cover war risks. And then you have war risk insurance. All ship owners have it. A war risk insurance actually covers hull and P&I. So in other words, if your ship is in a normal place, and you have a collision, or...

1:19

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

or there's a cargo claim, or there's pollution, it's P&I. If this happens because the ship was attacked by a rocket, so it's hit by a rocket, there's cargo damage, you've polluted the water, then your war risk insurance will include P&I. So the war risk cover that would then react to the pollution, to the cargo, to the normal P&I matters. So it's complete replacement. For example, I mean...

1:53

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

Suppose one vessel, I mean everything is normal and the vessel does not have the variation, but there is obviously other insurance the vessel has. If the vessel is hit by the rocket, so can the vessel any kind of thing?

2:17

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Not P&I, no. It's excluded. If you look at the P&I rules, it says war risks are excluded. They are completely outside of the rules. And for this reason, ship owners will always have three insurances. They will have hull insurance, they will have P&I, and they will have war risks insurance. Now, keep in mind, war risks insurance is worldwide. So in other words,

2:47

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Say you're my insurance broker, I come to you and I say I want more risk insurance. And the insurance broker will cover it for the whole world. So whether you go to Venezuela, whether you go to South Africa, whether you go to Korea, it's covered for war risks. So for example, if you're going into a... If you go to a Chinese port and there is an old mine from World War II and you hit this mine...

3:16

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

and the ship explodes, then that's a war risk cover. It's a war risk policy. Now, that's worldwide. What we are looking at at the moment, it doesn't affect charters, this is over. What we are looking at now is the situation in the Gulf, in the Straits of Hormuz. Now, while war risks cover covers the whole world, the war risks underwriters will have certain areas of the world which requires an additional premium, an AP.

3:46

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

So in other words, if you're trading to America, you're trading to South America, you're trading to the Far East, there is no additional premium. If you want to send your ship into the Red Sea, or if you want to send your ship into the Persian Gulf, then the war risk underwriter is going to say, I want an additional premium to send your ship there to cover it for this voyage, because there is an increased risk. And just as an example...

4:11

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Some of the additional premiums that were being requested recently to go into the Gulf were 10% of the value of the ship. 10%. So if you've got a $100 million tanker, the insurance premium to take it through will be $10 million. So the worst premium you're looking at is the additional worst. In other words, going to dangerous places. Normally worldwide, it's covered everywhere.

4:41

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

The time when it gets very expensive is when you go through an additional premiums place. So the additional premium areas, it's like by Somalia, Red Sea, all of the Gulf, and it's actually extending down the Gulf of the mountain. Sometimes there's parts of South America.

5:00

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

certain of these areas. Now, as a charterer, it doesn't affect you, unless you charter a ship which is going to one of these areas. And what the owners are doing, I mean, it doesn't affect your trade, obviously. Then you have to start looking at the charter party and what the charter party says, because most charter parties will say that the additional warrants premiums are for the charters. So, in other words, if I'm a charterer, I'm saying you have to go through the Red Sea.

5:31

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

then the charters pay the additional premium. And of course, the thing is, two months ago, there was no problem. You know, additional premiums, if you went through the Red Sea, were 0.5% or 1%. You know, it was a small fraction. But because it's all changed, the whole thing has changed, and it's been a problem for some charters, because they've found themselves where they're having to pay incredible premiums just to either get the ship through, or either they have to pay deburrage while the ship is stuck.

6:00

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Well, there has to be a very big premium to get the ship out. So, with the war risk, cover it. Does damage improve it or not? No, no, no. Damage is a commercial, it's a commercial, contractual point. In other words, if I delay your ship, I'm going to pay you so much a day. So, war risk wouldn't cover that. War risk would only cover physical damage, pollution, and so on. So, how does shipping...

6:30

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

companies are going to survive. Well, the shipping companies are alright because if you're stuck north of Straits of Formals and you're on charter, then either you're running deburrage or time charter continues to fade. So the owners will be okay. They're protected. It's the charters who have the real exposure here. I mean, just as an example, we had...

6:58

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

a member which loaded a cargo of crude oil in the Red Sea. In Yanbu, Saudi Arabia, they still have a terminal. You have both sides of Saudi Arabia, you have the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea, so they can still use the Yanbu terminal. And the vessel loaded from there, and this was when there was no ships trading oil because the Gulf was stuck, and the demurrage rate for that ship was $400,000 a day.

7:27

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

That's a lot. $400,000. Incredible, right? So, for the owners, it's good business. It's good business. And for the insurers, the overriders, the war risks, they're having good business. The charters have problems if you've got a ship stuck there. But that's not your business. We're safe from that for now. Yeah.

7:53

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

So, anyway, it's lovely to see you. Anyone else coming? Or just the two? Yes, our manager is here. Okay, fine. Shall I wait a little bit then? A little bit. Yeah, that's fine. Do you have a cold or a flu? I've got a bit of a...

8:13

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

A sore throat. A lot of people in Europe, I don't know if you have allergy here or not. We do. In Europe, we have all the trees, the blossom comes out. But it's usually only this time of year, during spring. So for these months, it's bad. And then in the summer, it's alright. Yeah, that's it. You have the same here.

8:38

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Not because of the Poland, mostly because of the pollution. The pollution, yes. The dust in the air. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the heat. Yeah. Well, today it's not too bad. It's not too hot. But it's kind of humid. It is, it is. I hate humid when I was in Thailand a month ago. We had a problem with the ship there. Oh. So I had to go to Thailand.

9:17

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

You had to physically be there? Yeah, I was there for two weeks. The ship sank. It was container ship, stability. A very old ship? No, but a small shuttle, one of these small container ships that carries only about 400 containers, so a small one. Was there any casualty? No, but the authorities are very unhappy because we have...

9:55

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

I don't know. Black tea?

10:09

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Do you know Thailand at all? There's a place called Phuket Phuket is the touristic area where it has all the white beaches and the ship sank very close to there so the authorities they are very upset

10:28

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

So we have the salvers, they are taking out the bunkers, they are removing the bunkers from the ship. The ship is 60 meters under water. It's quite a long way down. What are you covering there? What is West of England covering? Sorry? What is West of England covering? Liability. The worst possible case that any club can have, it's a wreck removal.

10:56

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

How much does it cost? It depends. So, for example, when a ship sinks, the authorities can say lots of things. They can say, remove the cargo, remove the bunkers. Sometimes they can say, remove the ship. So, in this case, at the moment we have to take off the bunkers. And that's difficult to...

11:22

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Technically it's very difficult because you have the ship 50 meters underwater. The bunkers get cold once it goes down there underwater and they are quite thick. They're not pre-flowing like on the surface. So the salvers have to go down, they drill a hole in the tank, they inject hot steam and the pressure sends the bunkers out of the ship and we take them out to a pipe. Now for an operation like this it's going to cost us about five or six million dollars.

11:53

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

And then they want us to remove, we have some dangerous cargoes on the ship. Yes. You know, like hydrogen peroxide and ethanol and all these in containers. So we have to take those away as well. So, like, how much does it cost in total? For a wreck removal, it depends on the ship. Right. So, if it's a small ship and it can be lifted up easily, yeah, yeah, and they have big cranes. Some of these cranes can lift us.

12:23

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

2-3 thousand tons. Then a simple wreck removal will cost maybe 10 to 20 million dollars. The more complicated one, we have another ship which has sunk, is around 80 to 100 million dollars. The very big ones, and there was one a few years ago, North of England had it, it was 400 million dollars.

12:49

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

One ship, 400 million. And the reason it becomes very expensive is because the authorities say, you have to do this, you have to do this, you have to do this. We don't want any pollution, we don't want any environmental problems. In the old days... Since it's all on you, they can just ask for things. Yeah, and rec removal is a P&I covered liability.

13:13

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_150)

It's the worst liability.

13:44

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Because we're over here, I thought it would be an opportunity just to pass by and say hello and just to catch up. I arrived yesterday and I'm leaving one Friday. We're going to Chittagong today. So we go to Chittagong for two days and then we come back again on Friday. So we use these two days in Dakar, two days in Chittagong and one day back in Dakar.

14:16

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Yes, yes, yes. We always go to Chittagot. We have quite a few members down there. So, I think it's been a good year for BCBCO, I think. In terms of problems and claims, it's been quite low profile. I would agree. Yes, yes. The reason I say that is we have a number of other members who are engaged in... Bigger team, chartering... No, not just that, but similar trade, chartering coal.

14:46

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

Not necessarily to Bangladesh, but to other countries. And the main reason is that the mother doesn't enter into the channel. That's why you are getting... Yes.

15:00

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

No complaint. And I have noticed your operations with the lighting and the steam doors are generally considering how many shipments you do. We are making 100% lighting at this moment and receiving 526 per month.

15:20

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

What about the number of incidents? Yes, yes. The reason I say that, as I say, we have other chartering members who do coal business and we see quite a lot of issues. Not necessarily P&I, we see a lot of FDD disputes between the owners and the charterers. So you've been very busy then? I think one of the good things is you have this long-term COA with Oldendorf.

15:47

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

And I think there is a good relationship between BCPCL and... They've been understanding because we always need a bit of time before paying. Yes, yes, yes. But like you, they've also been understanding. It works. Yes, yes. So I think it has worked quite well. But I see from over the years it's been a good year in terms of... From our side anyway, in terms of... I agree, I agree. So you need to speak to Nigel about that.

16:16

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

about the renewal. So yes, it's been quite quiet, to put it that way, which is good. And the claims we've had are quite modest as well. We haven't had the big... Some of our charters have a problem with the crane damages or they have a serious damage to the side of the ship, so we haven't had any of those problems, which is very good.

16:43

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

yeah what about your and this is nothing to do with us it's commercial for you what about the problems with lighting barges and bonkers getting fuel for the

16:55

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

for the ships. I think it's a problem these days. Yes, actually these days it has been a little bit of a problem. But we are trying from our stakeholder and also we are explaining to the government to help us. They are seeking support to the government. And till now...

17:12

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

The distribution has been lower due to further prices but it is ongoing. We asked the government to prioritize the coal sector or the power sector. I can imagine this as the country needs power. In one way it's good to have coal instead of having to rely on oil or something else. That's true. It's a big importance.

17:39

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Without oil, we wouldn't be able to run our power plant because we wouldn't be able to do contact lettering and contact lettering. I hear it's a real problem and down in Chittagong. And the next thing we are hearing, I mean every day they say it's open, it's closed, it's open, it's closed. It's hard to know what's happening.

18:07

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

At the moment, Europe is all right, but they're saying within five weeks or so, the aircraft, the airlines will run out of jets on the aircraft. It's a worldwide problem. One price will not be reduced, I think. We will escalate every day. I don't know. At the moment, yeah, it goes up and down, but it's staying around 100 or so. It will not reach 65 again.

18:45

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Just as an example, you're not involved in sanctions because you don't trade to any of these, to Russia or any of these other countries. Now, we have a lot of members who lift Russian crude oil. You're allowed to do it with an attestation. Now, the price of crude oil, according to the...

19:12

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Do you know about the price cap in Russia? You can lift Russian crude oil as long as it is carried below the price cap. So when the price cap came in, the G7 countries said it was about $67 a barrel. So as long as the Russians sell the oil below that, you can carry it. And then they give an attestation to the club saying it's carried below the price cap.

19:40

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

The price cap now for Russian crude is $44.10. So the legal position is that the Russians should be selling oil at $44. Now, we have members who are going to Russia today, tomorrow, yesterday. They are lifting crude oil. And they're giving us an attestation.

20:00

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

From the Charter saying, cargo is being carried within the price cap. So what they're telling us is that this cargo was loaded at $44 a barrel. And they're selling cargo at $110 a barrel. It's impossible that Russian crude... It's around $100. It fluctuates up to that. It's around $100 a barrel. But the price cap at the moment says that they can't sell it above $44.

20:28

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

And that's not happening. But we couldn't bring Russian oil without the permission of USA. If USA don't permit, then we may not. This is the problem. Yes, I know. The thing about the Russian sanctions, though, it's not really American, it's European.

20:48

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Most of the sanctions on the Russian cargoes are from Europe. Now, a problem we have explaining to some of our members, and you will be an example, and a good example for me is the Turkish members. We have a lot of Turkish members. We have about 50 members. So the Turkish members, they are not subject to the EU sanctions. They're not subject to the UK sanctions. They're not really subject to US sanctions.

21:12

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

If they go to Russia, they can trade. There's no problem in that. They can lift any cargo they want. They can get aluminium or coal or oil, whatever. But what they don't understand is that we can't ensure that. For example, the EU have a very long list of prohibited cargoes from Russia. You can't load aluminium, you can't load iron, you can't load copper. There's a whole list of cargoes. So, as between...

21:38

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Any third country in Russia, it's fine, they can lift it. There's no prohibition, there's no sanction. But if something happens and you come to your insurance company, it will say we can't cover you. Because we are subject to the EU regulations. Our head office is in Luxembourg. We have an office in London, UK regulations. So while the sanctions don't apply to you, they apply to us.

22:05

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

You can, it's very restrictive. Not with your coverage, then. No, there are things you can carry from it. I mean, you can carry oil as long as you get an attestation. One part I know which is strange is wood. Wood is prohibitive from Russia. Any form of wood. And there are so many products from Russia that are wood-related. You know, plywood, sheets, anything.

22:32

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

And some chiffons don't know that. And they'll carry a cargo of plywood. There'll be a cargo damage at the discharge quarter. We'll say, where is it from? It's from Russia. We'll say, sorry. It's not covered because we can't cover it because of the EU regulations. So it makes our life very difficult. In terms of your trade, it's fairly free. It's not a problem. You're not dealing with these countries. But we have a lot of members who do deal with...

22:59

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Russia, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, Syria. Syria used to be a problem, but it's not so much now after the change of government. It's difficult for us as insurers to keep track of what's happening in terms of sanctions. For example, the EU regulations, they go back to when Russia invaded Crimea.

23:26

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

I can't remember, it was 2014, I think. So that's the first time they invaded Crimea. And the regulation that came out was 17 pages long. When they invaded the greater parts of Ukraine, they kept adding to the regulation, and they kept adding the package, we're up to the 20th package. Those regulations now are 400 pages long, the same ones, because they keep adding...

23:58

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

companies, they keep adding names, they keep adding cargos. And trying to follow this is very difficult. If the Middle East countries run out of oil, EU countries would be bounded to take Russian oil. Yeah. No, you can take Russian oil. It's not a problem as long as it's at a station. The problem is the Iranian oil. Because of course China and India, they are big shippers of Iranian oil.

24:27

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

That's what the Americas are trying to stop. Not very successfully, though. So, I don't know what's going to happen. People say, you know, what's my view? It's very difficult, the problem, because we used to insure a lot of Iranian fleets. In the days of Obama, when they had the joint nuclear programs, the restrictions were lifted. So we insured Erasil, we insured Iranian tankers. We had quite...

25:00

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

It's a significant Iranian entry. And then Trump came to power the first time and he stopped everything. So we couldn't ensure them anymore. But we know that the Iranians are big traders, they have a big fleet, they have a lot of tankers, they have a lot of dry cargo ships.

25:22

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

The Americans have always been trying to stop the Iranians trading oil, and they have never done so. We know there's oils going all the time from Iran to China. There are big buyers. Because it's nothing to do with that, so we're not subject to oil. China imports 60% oil from Iran. And in a way, it's nothing to do with America. If Iran wants to sell oil to China...

25:52

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

What's to do with America? Unfortunately, the problem with OFAC and the American regulators is that while they may have sanctions on Iran that don't affect Bangladesh, China, India, all these other countries, that the way they get around that is they say, say for example you were lifting Iranian oil. You say, I'm entitled to, I'm not subject to OFAC sanctions.

26:21

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

I can lift your email and I can discharge it in Bangladesh. Then OFAC will come along and they will sanction BCPCL and they will put you on the list. And if you are OFAC sanctioned, you are dead in the water. You can do nothing. You can have no dollar transactions and it finishes your business. It doesn't apply to you but it's the way the Americans work. So tell me about BCPCL these days. How are things? How is it going?

26:53

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Yes. We have asked about the world. If the world has threats from what is, we will run out of oil. Yes. This is our main threat. Yes. And if Bangladesh run out of oil, so the economy will call us.

27:15

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

It's the same in many countries. When I was in Thailand, they were starting to limit people getting petrol. There are certain countries very reliant on something that has to be done. At the moment, everything is alright. Price? Price has gone up a lot. It's gone up 20-30%.

27:48

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

I was in Greece last week, and the same thing, the price is up 20%, but eventually, they don't have problems. Eventually, when the oil dries up, then there will be a problem. I know the Americans are trying to sell their oil now. I think they've finally just become a net exporter, because even the Americans import a lot of oil.

28:17

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

In Bangladesh also prices are up to 15%. Yes. The problem when the price of oil goes and everything goes up. Because all of the industries, all the industries need oil. Correct. And it pushes the prices of everything. Fertiliser is also a problem. These are worldwide problems that affect cultures across the world. Particularly fertiliser. And a considerable amount of fertiliser comes out of the Gulf.

28:51

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

But apart from that, I mean, BCBC has been okay this year? There is a draft restriction, a draft...

29:00

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

The draft is very low at our jetty. So we cannot bring the mothership. We only have to conduct full lightering which will fear that the cases might increase the damage situation for the incidents. The more lightering you do, the more chance you have of an incident. Costing increasing. Yes, of course. What is it? Can't you dredge alongside the field? Is it the entrance or the jetty?

29:29

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

We did dredging before, but there is continuous situation in that channel. Because of the flow from the river. Actually the gateway to Jetty, the channel is almost 85 km long. So such long channel is not possible for dredging. And also there is frequent situation. And already the government has invested a lot of money for dredging and we failed.

29:57

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

so that's why we have switched to the

30:00

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

The plan of 100% lightering. Last three months we have conducted lightering in Baira and now we are conducting lightering at Dichitaan. The battery is only around 5.5 meters to 6 meters. That's nothing, that's nothing. We bring coal and supermax vessels so they can come to the jetty. That's a very low track, isn't it? Yes.

30:26

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

But everything was going smooth. But from last two weeks, as you were saying, we are facing oil crisis for lightening. Normally, we need 7-8 days to complete a lightening operation. But we are seeing for the oil crisis, it is taking like 12 days, 50 days or even more. And all of the plant has been damaged. And the coal supply chain to the jetty also has been hampered.

30:53

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

We are really concerned about what is going to be happening in the future. We have to pay the demurrage to win. Yeah, of course. With the ships waiting. And now the demurrage rate is also very high. Because the freight is high due to oil prices. So the demurrage is also high. So you suffer from... Mainly you are suffering from the oil crisis. Oil crisis and draft crisis. The oil price will change, but the draft won't.

31:23

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Not easy. No, no. What about the nuclear power station that's happened? They're building one out there? It's finished? It's finished. It's working? I think it is expected to get commercial operation from December. But we don't think so. I mean, this year it's a possibility.

31:47

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

I think it was Russia, was it? Yes. Because I remember when, I think one of our members was carrying some of the cargo for the power station. And again, we had to make sanctions checks on it. And the irony is you can't carry wood from Russia, but you can carry a nuclear power station. That's weird, isn't it? So, yeah.

32:17

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

They're building a new port, haven't they? They built a new port, haven't they, between Cox's Bazaar and Schittanong? The new port, they built it or are they trying? Yeah, to try. Earlier they tell to build a Billsy port. Yes, this one. But there's no purpose. But the new government came and they... That's a new government now, isn't it?

32:46

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

And how is that working? I was here two years ago. It's kind of the same as before. Actually it was expected to parfum bitter, but due to this crisis, world crisis, this will start. It doesn't help anyone. Already facing big challenges. We just found it on. Into a new job and big companies.

33:19

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

Problems we haven't really had before. I can't remember when we've had oil prices. No such problem. I mean, this sort of oil flow supply crisis throughout the world. I remember, I don't know, 34 years ago, the Iraqi Iran war as well. Not like this, where they just closed the state. Very difficult. How long have you been working for Western England? The West? Thank you.

33:52

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

I've been with West for 18 years. I was originally in the Greek office. So I was in the Greek office for 10 years. Then I transferred to London. I've been in London for 18 years now. But in Greece I was working for another kind of law firm before. I was 24 years with that law firm. So I've lived most of my life in Greece.

34:27

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

I was 34 years in Greece. Most of my life. I've only seen photos, but it's so beautiful. Sorry? I've only seen photos. Oh, Greece, it's a beautiful country. Yeah, it's lovely. I like going there. My wife is Greek, so we go back maybe four times a year. It's our life recently. Again, it's a lovely place to live, but the government, the civil service, the authorities are terrible there.

35:00

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

It's very bureaucratic, it's very old fashioned, it's all paper work and documentation. It's not an easy country to deal with your authorities. Did the office like West of England request you to move to London or did you request it? No, I asked to move to London. There were two reasons. I had three children, they all studied in London and they all stayed in England.

35:30

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

So when they finished their work, there isn't much work in Greece. The only jobs are tourism and shipping. So they stayed in England. So we decided to move to England. What did you do in that law firm? Shipping. It was a shipping law firm. Yeah, it was just only shipping. And did you start handling James's job?

36:02

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Yes, yes, originally I was a claimed handler in the Greek office. But now I'm the head of the Eastern team. After Enum, who was the previous head, he's now head of offshore. So he does offshore and he's going to be taking over the Dubai office. We have the Dubai office as well now. So Enum will be doing offshore and Middle East Dubai. But the Eastern team, we're very, very busy.

36:35

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

I think the main reason to be busy is the Turkish members. They are very demanding. I lived in Greece most of my life, but the Greek ship owners are the most demanding in the world. They are quite difficult, but we have a lot of issues with the Turkish ship owners all the time. Something about the Greek ship owners is that one of the reasons why all the charter parties refer to English law...

37:04

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

is because we have a long precedent of settled law cases. In other words, once a case has gone to the English courts, all the cases afterwards have to follow that, so you can't change it. So we have a very long case law precedent. And if you look at the names of the ships in the cases, half of them are Greek, because the Greeks like taking everything to court.

37:33

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

We have so many settled court cases resulting from breach ships. We now have a well established court system. How is the maritime system here? You don't have maritime courts do you here in Bangladesh?

37:55

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

I think there are some judges in Chittagong who are maritime specialists.

38:24

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

So for Western England, it's been a good year for us as well. Obviously yours is different. You have charters, liability. We have also mutual members, the ship owners. So generally for the club, it's been quite a good year. When we look at the year, we try to get a loss ratio of just under 100%. So in other words, if we get 95, 96, 97, 98, that's good.

38:54

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

the claims and the costs are just below the premium. And I think we've done that for the last year. So we're just about at just under 100% for the last year. So for the club, it's been a good year. Some of the other clubs have had quite difficult years. I've heard some with loss ratios of 120. Yes, if you say start of the year, we have to estimate what the year's claims will be.

39:28

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

based previous years. So if you say we expect $100 million of claims and then you get $130 million, then you're $30 million out. You have to get it from the free reserves. But for the last year, it was a good year for us. When is your renewal? Do you know when... Sorry? When is February? Oh, you've done it already? Yeah. Because I remember last time you were saying we're going to put it out to tender.

40:02

S… Speaker 4 (Recording_150)

We did not do that. But we did ask for quotations from different groups. This is for... To benchmark against. This is what our management asks. Compare all the available offers. Of course, that's understandable. I'm pleased to recall that you knew the rest of everyone else. Me too. That's good to hear.

40:29

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_150)

I know you were mentioning last year about putting down the, trying to go for a lesser deductible. Is deductible the same? No, deductible has been less than 15,000. 15,000 now. Ah, good. Yes, all deductibles are 15,000 million dollars, but premium has never. Tell us, okay. Small amount. Small amount. I would say. Because most, for our mutual owners, all are deductibles of colour. All of them.

40:59

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_150)

have gone up. So you did well to get... I remember we mentioned it at a meeting last year where you were saying you wanted to go down. He spoke with Nigel. He came to Bangladesh. He offered us...

41:20

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

He gives you two options to choose from. Yes. One is $25,000 deductible. That is all. And the premium would be the same. It would be the same. For a high premium and lower deductible and higher. We will win for the lower deductible. Yeah. At least we've got something, yeah. As I say, all the mutual members, the deductibles have gone up quite a lot this year. Quite a lot.

41:59

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

So you were saying about the draft, do you draft down to 5 meters and take the mothership in or you don't bother it, it's not worth it, you do all of the lighting? Yes, actually minimum 6.5 meter draft. Then the mother vessel will carry partial. You do take the mothership in sometimes? Yes, several times, a lot of times. We did, but when the draft was above 6.5. Above 6.5. And two years ago the draft was almost...

42:28

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

9.5m. After bridging. And suddenly sensation increased and all of the thing has changed and the draft has been reduced to 5.5m. So that's about 20,000 tons, isn't it? Yes, 6.5m. So it's worth taking it in for 20,000 years.

42:55

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

We don't bring in any shift when the draft is below 6 or 6.5 because the grounding incident is happening. Because in some places the draft is maybe lower than 5. That's when the grounding incident happens. So we don't think that we see it.

43:12

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_150)

What's the bottom there? Is it sand and silt or is it rocky? Not rocky, it's silt. Minerals from Himalayas. Sand. So if the ship does sit on the bottom, you're not going to have the damage to it? Not big damage. They want a diving survey to check. We have this also.

43:41

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_150)

We have this sometimes in Chittagong as well. And if the vessel grounds and they're the only saying we insist on having a diving survey and then it costs $8,000 or something and then they claim it takes the charge. So we don't think that. And there is no solution to that.

44:06

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Actually, it is not workable because the channel is too long. Yes, as you said. So, several times, Parapur is the government authority for the grazing. What is the restriction, the birth or the channel, or both? The channel. It's a channel? Yes, it's a channel. Actually, there is a lot of fun actually.

44:32

S… Speaker 4 (Recording_150)

That's a long way to send lighters down the channel as well. Lighting cost isn't very low. It's a long transit. It is. Not easy for the logistics to sort out. And the cost? We're still doing it, but of course if the draft situation improves, it could be more helpful.

45:02

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

But dredging is done by foreign companies. And it's not possible for any Bangladeshi company to do it. So it's a long process of making a contract with them.

45:22

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_150)

The capital raising has been done two or three times. One time long ago, in 2019, it was done by DCBCR with the help of Jandana. Though it was the responsibility of Pairaco, but they were delaying. That is why we ourselves made some capital raising with the help of Jandana. And after that, all of the capital raising was done by Pairaco.

45:50

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

I would have thought the Chinese could do that as well. They seem to be doing a lot of these sporting constructions. The Chinese were famous. They just had a breakfast meeting, so probably full. It was recorded from the port of China. That's strange. The ship which sank in Phuket, which we have the salvage on site now, it's Chinese. We have Shanghai salvage.

46:20

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

who are taking off the bunkers. The Chinese are... I didn't realise how big they are now in all this salvage, port infrastructure, dredging, everything. They are a big company. For things like salvage, we always used to have the big companies like Schmidt and TT. We had all the big...

46:45

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

the Chinese are big on this and they are reliable, they do the job and they help them using the Chinese in time. We had a ship sink there, so we were just saying a bit early. We have a reprimanded. It's a very interesting thing that they have done some minor maintenance using the Chinese company. The crane is salvaging the ship. That crane is 2,500 tons of lifting capacity.

47:41

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Yeah, you can lift a ship with that. All the lighter barbages you use, it's less and less. They could lift it up in one go. The problem with these jobs is there's only two or three companies in the world who can do it. Schmidt. Yeah, Schmidt, Weismann, TT. It's a British company. Sorry? It's a company from England. No, it's China. China. China. China. They're big and everywhere now. They are. Yeah.

48:16

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

In Greece, the main port of Piraeus, Piraeus, which is the big central port. Costco owned it. It bought the whole port. They have big expansion plans. Anything you want to ask me while I'm here? I had a question. You provide coverage of cargo. Cargo such as coal, like the cargo we bring in. Your own cargo.

48:54

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Usually in the charter's liability it excludes your own cargo, but you can get an add-on policy which covers your cargo. What would that cover if we lose the cargo because the ship sinks and we lose the cargo? We will cover that? Well, you would have a claim against the ship owner under the bill of lading.

49:24

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

So if the ship sinks, they've lost your cargo, so you have a bill of labor for the cargo, you'd make a claim against the ship owner. The additional policy, we'd have to pay an additional premium for that. If you wanted to cover your own cargo, that would be a separate cargo policy. I'd have to speak to Nigel about that, or you would have to ask us to... And what about the lighter ships, if we use cargo on the lighter ships?

49:52

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

What kind of coverage would we have to get? What type of coverage do we have to get? That would be the same.

50:01

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

Again, in theory, if the lighter ship loses your cargo, you have a claim against the lighter ship. But I know in practice it's different. But if you wanted to cover your own cargo, then you'd have to ask that.

50:25

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

One is as a liability policy, another is cargo. As you own the cargo, you have to take cargo policy. It is another part. It is fully another issue. You are a voice chatterer. You take the vessel as a voice chatterer.

50:52

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Ship owner gives the vessel as a time chatter or directly used as a bus chatter. Your role shifted time to time. Your role not fixed. At the time from seller, at the time of seller, seller transfer this cargo to another part as a shipper. Then you should have built up leading.

51:24

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

cheaper than change any time but to notify in here as a bank or then indoors and then something. At the moment, if you use a cargo owner, you own cargo, you loading your cargo in the vessel, you are loading because your responsibility as a borracher loading responsibility on you.

51:54

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

loading the vessel and complete and then you will discharge. In its leg of sea voice, if anything happen, it is a ship owner's responsibility. This cargo is at the care and custody of ship owner at that time. It is a navigator, he navigated the vessel, so it's a responsibility.

52:19

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

and then discharge port, you discharge the cargo. If anything happens at the discharge port, your stewardower is discharging the cargo, your appointment is stewardower. So, how will you go against the ship owner? You own cargo, you self-appointed ship stewardower. So, in that case, you cannot against the class.

52:45

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

So when you will take the cargo on policy, there is something policy input there. This is a one cargo. You cannot recourse against the ship or striped as you are your own cargo. So some colors input your cargo on policy. If it is a third party.

53:08

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

And then, at the time of anything happen, you will go to the coast of England for you as a liabilities. But in here, you take your own cargo, it is not a liabilities. If that party is in work, then we can claim. You can claim. All times, PNI is your only liabilities. All types of liabilities. Where do you ship the cargo from? It's not Indonesian cargo. It's Indonesian. We have problems sometimes with Indonesian cargo.

53:41

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

You know that. Heating? Yeah, heating up, unloading. We had a number of our members who had problems. Is there like fire incidents? Yeah. And these are calls catching fire. Which would be... No, no, I don't want to hear that. Because as a charter's liability, for example, if it catches fire on the ship, it would cover the ship effectively. So if the ship caught fire as a result of carrying your cargo.

54:09

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

then that would be a chart for Zion. We don't want that. But again, this comes back to the point you're asking about the cargo itself. So if you had a cargo policy and it caught fire or there was damage or it got wet or something like that, it put water on it, then you might want to do it as a separate cargo policy. What would you suggest? Because you've been handling games for a while. What would you suggest? Should we take that cargo?

54:35

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

policy as well, like, would that benefit us more? At the moment, you haven't had any card, I haven't seen any card claims, so the answer is, but you never know, you don't want insurance to claim against it, you want insurance in case something happens. A card party involved in any card party? No, that's it, I mean, yeah, in terms of if...

55:00

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

There's a problem with the cargo that you load. For example, we know Indonesia is a problem country. You do get cases of cargo that's heating up. And it creates lots of problems. Sometimes you have to close the holes and wait for the oxygen to release. Sometimes they have to discharge it ashore. They don't like doing that. Sometimes you have to wait. Sometimes they load another cargo on top that it puts it out. So there are different ways of dealing with it.

55:28

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

But at the load port, it's probably not our responsibility. No. After being loaded on the ship, then it's... Actually, we are purchasing on FOVs. So loading is the supplier's responsibility. After he's on board, then it travels to us. Yeah, that's the problem because it usually starts happening on board after a few days and even sometimes when the ship sail at sea. I remember maybe 5-10 years ago...

55:57

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

There is only one survey requirement for the club. If you're loading steel cargo, you have to have a pre-loading survey. If you load finished steel, coils, rods, rebars, you have to have a survey. You don't have one load cover. We used to have a survey. If you're loading Indonesian coal, you have to have a survey because we had so many problems with heating. That was maybe 10 years ago.

56:27

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

It's better now, but we still occasionally do help them. We do test the call, like our suppliers test the call and give us a pre-shipping inspection report on the specification plan. But sometimes we receive email from the shipping agent that the Veseloma has appointed.

56:50

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Yes, sometimes we as owners, members come to us saying we're logging Indonesian coal and we say maybe you might want to check it. Keep an eye on it because it might be problematic. So yes, you will get owners coming along saying we want to inspect the cargo. That's not unusual.

57:08

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Yeah. The two cargos we don't require surveys for but are problematic are Indonesian coal and cargo which might liquefy like iron or fines, the chrome ore. A lot of it's in Indonesia, this area. It's cargo which turns into liquid when you go to sea. If you load a cargo which is very fine, like iron or fines, it's like sugar or like grains.

57:39

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

If there is water in that cargo, when you load it, some of them are stored outside and it rains, and it goes on the ship, it goes on board okay, but once it goes to sea and starts vibrating, then the cargo drops to the bottom and the water comes to the top. And you can sometimes have a lake in the hold and you lose the stability. The ship loses its stability and sometimes it can turn over.

58:06

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

We see people loading, it's called chrome ore. When you think of ore, you think of sort of rocks and things. But this stuff, it's like mud. They just scoop the mud up and put it on a ship. And if it's wet, they have a little problem. You don't know that, so... Is there water content in it? Since it's like mud, you said. Is there water content in it?

58:35

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

In it, in it. Or is it just a liquid? No, no, no. The difference is, for example, say you load wet coal. Then the coal, the water will drain up. The coal you put in the bilges and you pump it out. The cargo itself stays solid. The problem with cargoes in which liquefy these, they start off solid, and then once they start vibrating, the water comes out and it separates.

59:01

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

and you get free water. So ships turning over, that's intense? Yes, it happens. It happens. They lose stability because you imagine if you've got water inside a hole and it's rolling. When the moisture content is very high, then it may happen. But we have a limit. No, no, no. You know how it works. You have a transportable moisture limit, the TML. They have tests for it. The test that captains do is called the cam test. They take a can of cargo.

59:28

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

and then they knock it four or five or six or seven or eight times, and they see if water comes out on the top. Now, that's not a technical test. What they normally do, they actually analyze the cargo to see what is the water content. When you're carrying some of these cargos, you always have to do it. You get a certificate that says TML, transportable moisture limit, and as long as the moisture limit doesn't exceed that, then it's okay to carry.

59:54

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

But the owners are aware of this and they're very careful. It doesn't relate to cold cars.

1:00:04

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

So how can we protect BCPCL's interest if we lose cargo from the lighter ships? What would you suggest me I do? So you've taken off the mothership, it's on the lighter ship, it's on board, and somehow from the mothership until the birth, it's become lost. When you say lost, you mean physically lost or in weight?

1:00:30

S… Speaker 4 (Recording_150)

Physically lost. Physically lost. First of all, you'd have a claim against the lighter ship. Yes, but what can we basically say? When something happens with the mother ships, I ask him for suggestions. But if we don't have that cargo policy, we can tell the lighter ships that you gave us what we lost. But how is that going to work? We just tell them.

1:01:00

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

It would depend on what contract you BCPCL have with the leadership. I presume you have some form of contract to get. That's it.

1:01:17

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_150)

After remaining, just discharging from the mother moon, there is no responsibility, ship owner. You cannot carry anything or stop it. Okay, just now. You under contact AFV, you have to take cargo policy. Okay, everything is shortage.

1:01:37

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_150)

You can claim to the marine cargo insurer. They will pay your claims. Then they will take recourse by action against the light arrest. This is the one question.

1:02:07

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Thank you very much.

1:02:14

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

So, this claim is a total loss. It is a total loss. It is a total loss. It is a total loss. It is a total loss. It is a total loss. It is a total loss.

1:02:39

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

The P&D is not the liability portion. The TT Club has a lot of money. However, the cargo is not the case. The cargo is not the case. The cargo is not the case. The cargo is not the case. The cargo is not the case. It is not the case. It is not the case. It is not the case. It is not the case. It is not the case.

1:03:07

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Then, if you don't have any accident in this case, the insurer will be able to do the recovery. The local insurer will be able to do the claim. But if there is a carrier, it will be able to do the recovery.

1:03:36

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Lighter. Lighter. But now we have our charterer, which is the owner. The charterer is the liability portion of our cargo liability. That is one of the most part of our cargo liability. But third-party liability portion of our P&I club is the one. Okay, now we have the contractor with our lighter. We have to impose the P&I policy.

1:04:06

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

1:04:31

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

What do you want to do with lighters? If you want to talk about it, it will be confidential. What do you want to do with lighters? What do you want to do with lighters? What do you want to do with lighters? What do you want to do with lighters? I want to do with lighters.

1:05:00

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

foreign foreign foreign foreign foreign foreign foreign

1:05:27

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

the time and condition. Even if you have a voice chatter, if you have a voice chatter, if you have a voice chatter, then you will be responsible. So, you will be responsible for your responsibility. So, you will be responsible for your responsibility. You will be responsible for your responsibility. You will be responsible for your responsibility.

1:05:55

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:06:35

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

foreign foreign foreign foreign

1:06:54

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Two final points before. In terms of claims handling, I don't know if you've noticed that Berfin and Beza are doing a lot of the work. Berfin sits next to me. She's been with us for three years now. She's a Turkish solicitor, qualified. She's also qualified in England. But I think she understands your business now.

1:07:20

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

She's quite good. And also we have Beza. Have you had anything from Beza yet or not? No, okay. I think we spoke with Mr Cameron. And Cameron, yes. And yourself. And Berfic.

1:07:35

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

So, if you ever send messages, for example, like now if I'm travelling, I don't pick it up, then always send it to Cameron and... Send it to me as well so I can make sure. And the other one on the outcast, this is the damaged electric cable. Now, in theory, the barge should, the lighter should... First of all, is the claim. It looks like it. They've obviously damaged the wire.

1:08:04

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

It's hard to tell. Is it new? It looks like a new damage. The problem is, the problem when you damage these wires is that you have to replace them because if water gets into a damage on an electrical cable, then it's no good at all. Now, I see the plane for 80 meters, which is a long wire, but the trouble is if you only have one damage in the wire, you can't really, you can't cut it and replace it. So it is, let's say, a good plane. But the problem is...

1:08:32

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

You can't get this money. I understand the steven doors can fix things. Can they not make payments or not? They cannot make payments outside of Bangladesh without getting permission from Bangladesh. They would need to do that because if a order of claims from us, we will make the payment. Or we will ask you to make a payment and then we will be in person. Okay, so what I'm saying then is, can you get the money from them locally?

1:09:07

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

We can get the money from the local, but the problem isn't sourcing of the money. The problem is getting the money through bank. No, I understand that. I understand that. But you see, sometimes the master of the council, they don't want to take it into local transactions. No, no, I understand that. Okay, so I'll see what you want to see if you can pay. It's the usual way.

1:09:33

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Right now, there is no way because the vessel has left, we can't pay them locally anymore, we'd have to do it through bank. No, no, what I'm saying is... The vessel is again being nominated and I think the vessel will be back in May. Yeah. So we can make the local payment to them? In the cheap account. If they agree. No, the option, you mean make local payment to the share? Yes. You mean BCPC...

1:10:00

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Yeah, I'll pay the ship directly. Oh, no, we can't do that. No, no, no, that's what I'm saying, no. So, let's go back. So, the lighter is responsible for it. Correct. You put the lighter on notice and said it's your fault. Yeah, that we can do. Now, can you get payment locally between the lighter and BCPCL?

1:10:20

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

in Bangladesh for the equivalent of 4,000 euros. You can do that. So, if I go to our credit controller, can we advance this to Oldendorf?

1:10:36

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

That's not possible. I understand because we have issues. Let me check with accounts because it's not a big sum. There has not been any official claim so far. We're not asking you anything. Let me check with accounts and I'll see if we can advance it. Because what's always happened is we've advanced and paid settlement and eventually you've paid us. So from my perspective I would be happy to do that.

1:11:02

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

Thank you, but... It depends on credit control. You would have to ask right now. No, no. They didn't really... Fine. I just want to check with credit control anyway, in case we need to do that. Because the easy way is the lighter bar to pay to do in whatever currency is okay. Is it easier for all involved parties? We pay on the north and then we give you the deductible if we need to do it. That's the...

1:11:26

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

The easiest way, shall we say. I would say the easiest way is when... The light can settle, yes, it is direct with the ship. So I'll just wait on that one and we'll see. But the trouble is once a wire is cut, they have to replace it. They did send us like an invoice? Yeah, it was from before, it was from March.

1:11:50

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

I mean, about the electrical cable damage. They sent us an invoice of how much the cable costs in euros. Yes. That was 4,500. 4,300 dollars or so. The invoice was dated March. It was before. Probably the original invoice of the damaged cable. Correct. It's not an invoice for you. To give an idea like how much it costs. Yes.

1:12:15

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

So they might claim that later? I'm sure they will, yeah. The owners will definitely claim that from all the doors. And then all the doors will... But there has been some incidents in the past year that have seen some very minimal damages that the owners or the oldeners have settled between themselves or did not claim anything back to us? Yeah, it didn't come back to you. But the advantages of the vessel is already been nominated to perform.

1:13:14

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

I don't want to take all your day here.

1:13:21

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_150)

It's always very, very good to have you, all of you. Yeah, it's nice to come here. Do you know this wasn't on the original plan, but I said... Thank you for coming. We have to come and see BCPCL, which is why Chris is somewhere else and I'm here. There is some question sometimes comes to me. They say cargo liabilities and cargo-owned liabilities. They ask for some type of the cover. Thus, you can give explanation to BCPCL, cargo-owned liabilities. You mean...

1:13:52

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_150)

We have this coverage. Cargo must be the library. But we don't have cargo library. You have a goal. If you carry the third party libraries, then this will be covered. And also, if you carry cargo, then cargo owner libraries cover under your covers. So they want to make a difference between them. I get that. We need to speak a moment about how we get the cut-off between...

1:14:23

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

your own liability for your own cargo, which is what we're talking about. Maybe that is a stupid question. I don't know. I actually don't have all the details. No, no. So, just a bit. It's FOB. So, when does the cargo become yours?

1:14:43

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

After the cargo has been loaded on the ship. So once it's on board the ship, it's your cargo. So you need to look at a cargo liability cover from shipment until discharge at the pier. At the pier. Because that's what you've got. We've got two sections. We've got the sea voyage.

1:15:00

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

And then you've got the lightering barge. Oh, the lightering barge. Yeah. So again, in theory, if any damage officer does during either of those sections, the liability should be on either the ship or the lightering barge. Yes. But, as an example I gave you, once it's loaded on port of shipments during the sea voyage and something happens to cargoes, for example, eating, then that would be a charter's liability.

1:15:32

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

It wouldn't cover the cargo itself. Now, you wouldn't have a potentially claim against the shipments, but that's difficult. Since it's FB, because then it's our liability after it's unloaded on the ship. Yeah, the shipments still have a liability in relation to the cargo they load. The quality of it. Yeah.

1:15:55

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

So it's a very complex case. Yeah. But let me speak to you later when we get back and ask you if it's worth it. You might find that it's not worth it, but we can check that. You are interested in for your latest covers, B&M and DT.

1:16:12

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

And in that case, we can discuss... Actually, we're just exploring. Because you have to some condition input in your contact with Lighter's vessels. There's a clause in our contact with the Lighter that they take P&I coverage, but they...

1:16:35

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

We could not pursue it. We will discuss it later. I think they will get a problem. The lighters wouldn't be able to get IG color, that's for sure. Because we don't cover small lighters. They might be able to get some fixed premium sort of color. I'll leave that to Thaisers. You have a fixed facility.

1:17:02

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

Yeah, but I don't know whether that's better suited to the local market or a fixed premium. We're talking about the lighter barges here, not your car. The lighter barges. If the letters don't have the IM number, will you take the power?

1:17:21

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

That's difficult. This is why, for example, we've been asked about covering lighter barges in that question. There is some number, seal number or something, number is input there. There is some number in here to identify the number. They're not either, I understand. They're not either. It's not IMO? Yeah, identify the number. That's for local law. We've never looked at covering any of the barges here. And I think none of the regular...

1:17:50

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

There are lots of fixed facilities available of course, outside of the IG. I'm not sure they would take them. Where are the barges insured? They're presumably insured on the local markets, all these lighters. No liability insurance. They don't have liability because they just have H&M. Yes, just only hall missionary. Local insurance should be right.

1:18:16

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

But day by day is being closed. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if someone cover long enough with PMI for all the barbecues, that's a lot of business. So the steam doors actually, the self, not steam doors, the lighters are self-insured for liability. In other words, yeah, they cover their own claims. It must be. I can understand it now, is the lighter barbecues would have a lot of machinery, so if they have an accident or whatever.

1:18:49

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

They would claim against some machinery, but if there's a P&I liability, like they bump into a ship or then use the cargo, if they don't have any local cover, then they're self-insured. I can imagine that's the case. There are so many barges here. Must be thousands in Bangladesh. Near about 1,500. Yes, I can imagine that. And I've seen some are very good, some are not good. Some of them are surprisingly good condition. They're like proper coasters.

1:19:23

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_150)

Yeah. Some are old. Yeah. Anything else? No, I don't know. Thanks for all having the time to come and see us. It's always good to meet you. We've got a lot of things from you today. Okay. Anything else? Let me know. I'm happy to help. Whether it's general or in relation to BCPCL. And I say, keep the correspondence to me, but also copy you. Both of them can I.

1:20:00

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_150)

In fact, Berfin says her regards. She told me that...

Oversigt

Spørg AI om denne transskription