Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon

0:00

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Hello, I'm Jo Fidgen. Welcome to Outlook, where people from around the world share their extraordinary personal stories. This is the voice of today's guest in his evangelical preaching heyday. He was just four years old.

0:40

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

The recording's 70 years old. It's a bit shaky, so let me tell you what's being said. Yes, I may be only four years old, but I'm not too young to love my Jesus. I know what it is to have Jesus in my heart. Do you know what it is to have Jesus in your heart?

0:57

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

The crowds, and they were crowds on the revivalist circuit in the United States, would go wild, speaking in tongues, witnessing what they considered miracles, and handing over their cash in great quantities. Marjo Gordner, that's the preacher's name, was undoubtedly a star. But years later, he would speak up about the contrickery and worse behind the scenes. Now, Marjo...

1:26

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

is an unusual name, but then he comes from an unusual family. Are you the only Marjo you know? Are there any other Marjos? Not that I've met, no. You know, Marjo is Mary and Joseph put together. And I come from, I believe, four generations of preachers. So that's where they got the name Marjo, Mary and Joseph. Right. A family of preachers and a family of deeply religious believers?

1:52

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

I don't know about that. It's like they believed it when they were in the moment, let's put it that way. In other words, they didn't practice everything they preached. For example? Well, we would be preaching against alcohol and drinking and my mother loved her martini in the evenings and things like that. Okay. Long line of preachers, was it always the expectation that you would also be a preacher?

2:16

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

I think it was planned, yes. You know, my father pastored a First Assembly of God in New York City. My mother was an iterant evangelist with another woman called Vera Ludlam. They were known as the Canadian sisters. Quite striking. My mother was 5'10", very good-looking woman. And they came to New York to do an evangelical meeting at my father's church. They met, fell instantly in love. He dumped his family completely. They went to Las Vegas, got the quickie divorce.

2:44

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

and moved straight out to California, where I came along. And then at the age of four, they had me ordained into the Church of God as a minister. Marjo's dad had a brainwave about how to get publicity for his little preacher son, have him officiate at a wedding, and invite the prestigious Life magazine to photograph the whole thing.

3:10

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

And my father got this idea as a stunt. We had Life magazine paid $50,000 for the exclusive photographs, which is a lot of money. This is the 1940s, yeah?

3:20

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

That's right, right. So he went down to the marriage certificate place and picked out a sailor, and his wife had said, how would you like to be married and be on the cover of Life magazine? And they said, sure. So they procured them to come over to this chapel. Then my father and mother had to make sure that no other photographers could get pictures, because if they did, that would take care of the 50,000 with Life magazine. So to prevent that, they rolled me up in a big...

3:47

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

rug, carpet, and carried me out into the car, then carried me into the rug, into the chapel, unrolled me, and out popped little Marjo. And here is little Marjo at that wedding in January 1949.

4:27

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

And so we did the ceremony. Then the state came forward and said it was illegal because it was officiated by a minor. Then they went back. This changed California state law, by the way. They went back and it said to be an ordained minister or a justice of the peace. It did not say over 21 or over 18. So therefore the marriage was declared legal. That's amazing. I mean, just the idea of ordaining a four-year-old as a minister of the church is quite extraordinary, isn't it?

4:55

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Did you have to sort of make a profession of faith and all of these things?

5:00

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

I know I was four years old. I don't recall. I think they just said, sign, Sonny. I signed a piece of paper or something. So you could write at least. So when you signed the marriage certificate for this couple, you could at least sign? Yes, yes. Right. And you could talk. I mean, crucially, how could you talk? Right. From the publicity, we went out touring and my mother went into teaching me sermons. My Bible says you have pointed on to man.

5:39

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

That's a whole other thing that was fun and not so much fun. I had to learn all these sermons.

5:54

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Who would write the sermons? My mother would. A 20-minute sermon is about 15 full pages, and I had to memorize them verbatim. Then after memorizing it, you had to go in, you know, God is up, hell is down, and you have to do the gestures and everything that goes along with it, you know.

6:14

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Not just the gestures. I mean, this was a full-on performance, wasn't it? Dancing around the stage and waving your arms. Absolutely. And all across the nation for the past four years, the little preacher has been going up and down, winning lost humanity with the message of the master. At this time, let me introduce to you little Marjo. Howdy, neighbours. May the Lord bless you.

6:40

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

My father played the role of advanced man and promoter. He did all the promoting and my mother handled me, the sermons, the gestures. I think some of the sermons she taught me, she was a minister, were some of her old sermons and she always had great titles for them like Hell with the Lid Off or How to Put Your Begs in One Ascot, Living Triumphantly in the Face of Defeat, stuff like that. Wow, so she really had a gift for it. And your sermons talked about what?

7:09

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Heaven and hell, fire, brimstone, typical sermons that you hear from that period of time. I'll give you an example of a piece of one sermon that I actually wrote.

7:20

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

More than 19 centuries ago, he was born in adversity and reared in obscurity. His birth was contrary to the laws of life, and his death was contrary to the laws of death. In infancy, he startled a king, and in boyhood he puzzled the doctors, and in manhood he gave his life a ransom for many. He didn't own any cornfields or fisheries, but he could spread a table for 5,000 with bread and fish enough to spare. He never walked on any soft, plush, beautiful carpets, but he walked the seas of Galilee, and they supported him.

7:50

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

preached the gospel through his time. He never wrote a book, but all the libraries cannot contain the books that have been written about him. I'll shorten it up a bit. At the end it goes, Herod couldn't kill him. Satan couldn't seduce him. Death couldn't destroy him. And the grave couldn't hold him. Wow. Stuff like that. Wow. We would be in a place for five nights. Remember, I would have to have five nights or a week and I would have to have a different sermon every night. So that's quite a repertoire. So this was like a full-time job for you.

8:17

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

On top of that, I was being taught school, so it was all day. Were you a willing participant in this? Very much so, yes. I must say I enjoyed it.

8:28

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

After a point, I started to take control. For instance, there was a television show called The Lone Ranger. And I said I wanted to watch The Lone Ranger. And The Lone Ranger came on right about service time. And I said, well, if I can't watch The Lone Ranger, I'm not going to preach anymore. And guess what? I watched The Lone Ranger. Right, OK. So you got your way. I mean, what would happen if when you were learning your sermons, you got tired, you got bored, you didn't want to do it anymore, you couldn't remember?

8:54

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

My mother went to certain things that she did to me, like if I was a bad boy, not getting it, wash my mouth out with soap or hold my head under the water. We call it a little religious waterboarding. A little religious waterboarding. Right. Stuff like that, yes. And I still love my mother very much, but she was a person she would stop at nothing to get it done. Including waterboarding her child. Correct. Well, she wasn't waterboarding, but she held my head upside down under a bath faucet. For how long?

9:25

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

until I would cough and spit up water. Did it feel like torture to you? It was not comfortable, but it honestly didn't bother me. I just went along with the flow. She never touched me because she didn't want me to have any bruises or anything on my body, so she never really hit me. A couple of times she would have me hold up my hand and hit me with a hairbrush or something like that. And yet you've offered the information that you love your mother. Yes.

9:53

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

I don't really have bad memories about it at all. Like I say, if I had the thing to choose, I would do it all over again.

10:00

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Again, I wouldn't say I have no self-pity for myself whatsoever. That's extraordinary. Do you think that's just a personality trait or do you think that is, I mean, a defence mechanism? Possibly. I don't know. OK, so let's talk a bit about the revivalist circuit then. How did that work?

10:22

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Well, two ways. Sometimes we would go to another person's church, as my mother used to do as an evangelist, to pump up the crowd. My father would make a financial arrangement about splitting, say, 50-50 the money that came in, and we would do it that way. Then we would book our own independent meetings, and he'd go ahead and just put ads in the paper. The little miracle child is here, the lame walk, the blind see, the dumb speak. We even hooked up with Ringling Brothers Circus for a while and traveled with them.

10:52

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

And Old Man Ringley, the condition was that I would ride Burma, the world's largest elephant. So we were just an extension of the circus. And we had our tent, a big tent, 60 by 80, seated about 500 people down the way. So I would ride Burma, the elephant around, and the ringmaster would say, the little miracle child, the lame walk, the blind see, the dumb speak, and he's only down the midway.

11:16

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

That's another way that we did it. Another way we would do them is we would rent auditoriums. I did Madison Square Gardens. There's a Louisville Memorial Auditorium that holds 10,000 people. I have pictures on my walls of it being packed, absolutely packed. In fact, children sitting in the aisle. So we were filling out these.

11:34

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

stadium-type shows. Coming to hear you preach, little four-, five-year-old, six-year-old you. Yeah, believe it or not. You say the advertising would say, you know, Miracle Child, and the story that your parents put about was that you were visited by God in the bath. That's right. All this was a vision from God. God spoke to me in my dreams and gave me the sermons.

11:57

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

All of that. So the sermons came directly from God. These were not memorized sermons that you'd been abused to learn. Well, they were memorized, but that was what I would tell the public. Right. So they just thought you were speaking from inspiration. Right. One Monday morning, while sitting alone in my room, the Lord gave me the words and the music, for I love that man of Galilee, that you will love him too, neighbor.

12:37

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

So what would the, I was going to call them the audience, which might be an appropriate word. What was the congregation doing when you were reciting like this, performing like this? Oh, jumping up and down and saying, hallelujah. Then let's talk about finances, how we got the money. Would you be interested in that? Oh, of course.

13:11

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Well, first of all, I want to clarify something. We never collected any money till the service was done. For instance, you go to see the Rolling Stones or a concert, you buy your ticket in advance and you pay. Ours was free will offering to come in. So I had to do a really...

13:26

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

You know, jumping jack flash, so to speak, in a performance to get a free will offering. And my mother would get a fever pitch. She would give me a signal like, oh, God, hallelujah or something. That would mean get the offering. And then I'd go right into, you know, I want you to get out the largest bill you've got in your pocket. And then we'd go out. And sometimes they send me down in the audience for $20. A little Marjorie will give you a kiss. So I had all these old ladies giving me smutches, you know.

13:57

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Then at a certain point, like I said, I got a little, I would steal some of the money. I was dressed in these little, and I would stuff some of the money in my pants. And when we'd go back to the hotel, I'd give it to some of the kids at the hotel just for fun. Who took the rest of the money? Oh, mommy, daddy. Okay. Mostly daddy. Right. So you didn't see any of it, but do you know how much you raised in your 10 years of preaching? It was in the millions.

14:25

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

I don't have an exact count, no, but it was quite a bit. Millions of dollars. Oh, yeah. Raised in 20-bill notes at the end of a sermon? $20. Well, not always $20, $10 notes. We would go down $10. And we'd definitely say only folding money. We don't like that clinkling, clanking sound, you know.

14:45

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Right. I mean, I know at one point your parents released an LP of some of your sermons. That's correct. We sold those at the back. They were for sale. Yeah, made a lot of little recordings. How well do they sell?

15:00

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Oh, quite well. It's like, you know, the gift shop after you leave.

15:04

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

If there's anyone in the sound of my little voice who is eternally lost, it'll not be God's fault, for God has placed many obstacles in our pathway. My mother was a fantastic piano player, and then she taught me to play five instruments. I only knew one song on each instrument, but a little bit. I'd pick up the saxophone, then I'd do the accordion, then I'd play the organ, then I'd thump the bass fiddle. The congregation, the people that came to see me.

15:31

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

You know, we're factory workers. Like one guy would be painting.

15:35

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

yellow on a radio dial. That's all he did all day long. Very oppressed. And they came out and for one hour I made them feel good. I had them dancing, laughing. We did wonderful. So there was a lot of entertainment before we went into the sermon part of it. And that made those people feel good because they didn't, movies were bad. That was evil. Television was even bad, you know, unless it was some soap opera, daytime thing. No guns or westerns.

16:03

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Very restricted, so I gave them a good show. Yeah. Were these people who came to see you, were they...

16:10

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

people who really believed in what you were saying and were looking to you to help save their souls, as it were. Absolutely. We even had, believe it or not, I know it's psychosomatic, but we had some true miracles. We have a prayer line that come up and, you know, one woman in particular had a seven-year-old son, totally blind, and brought him up the ramp. And I remember saying to my mother, what should I do now? She goes pray for him.

16:37

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

So in the name of Jesus, you know, I prayed for him. His eyes opened on the spot. Turns out he'd been in a car accident and the sight of the crash had mentally blocked his brain. Nothing punched his eyes, but he was blind. And by telling him to believe in me, let go, and he was healed on the spot. I mean, in the same sentence, you've called that both a miracle and psychosomatic. Which do you genuinely believe it was? Oh, it's totally psychosomatic.

17:04

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

but he believed that strong in me, she'd propped him up, you know, this is the guy that can do it for you. Then there was many other people which I don't know, I mean, I could break a crutch over my knee and they'd come up hibbling and they'd go running off the ramp. Whether that was real, I have no idea. Did you start to believe in miraculous powers as a little boy? No, no, never. So what did you think was going on as a child, seeing all the adults respond to you like this?

17:33

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

I wanted to put on the best show that I could. I always wanted to make it better. I'm a perfectionist. And it would give me joy. I mean, I don't want to say spiritual joy, but a good kind of joy. And I'm not laughing at them as idiots or that. But this was happening. You know, it was a good thing. Yeah. What kind of lives were you and your family leading as a result of your success? Were you living the life of the rich?

18:03

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

In and out. We traveled at a beautiful trailer, a New Moon trailer, which was a fancy trailer at the time, a mobile trailer. Then we stayed, like in Louisville, Kentucky, at the Brown Palace Hotel in Presidential Suites, quite comfortable. Sometimes we would stay in some people's homes that had these beautiful mansions in the south, and they would feed us and take care of us, and that was very nice. I enjoyed that. If they had children, I'd play with their children and stuff like that.

18:31

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

So you did get to be a child sometimes, did you? A little bit, yes. Yeah, a little bit. Oh, yeah. Did you feel special? Yes. Special kind of divine special or just, you know, like a talented performing child? Just I knew that it was something special that I was doing, not that I was so much special, but what I was doing was something miraculously special.

18:58

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Your parents, how did you get along with them? After all, you're funding their lives. Very well. Like I said, my mother did some abuse on me and I loved her, respected her, but my father...

19:11

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Never late. In fact, one time I did something that hurt us like it. She grabbed me by the neck and handed me to my father and said, take him in the room and give him a thrashing. So my dad grabs me by the back of the neck and rips off his belt as he walks in. I get on the bed and he goes, shh, and holds his hand and he's screaming. Then he hits the bed, ow, ow. He never touched me. So I loved him for that. And he would play baseball with me, take me outside and, you know.

19:39

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

He'd play baseball, catch or throw the ball up and bat the ball. He was a baseball fan. He took me to Dodgers games, so he got me out and all of that stuff, you know. Your father did leave you in the family while you were still a boy. That is correct. How old were you then? Ten or eleven.

20:00

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

I believe. And he took my brother. And my brother, I told you they tried to get him to do it. My brother, I felt bad for him. He just passed away, unfortunately. He went to Vietnam and got Agent Orange and killed him. I didn't have to go to, because I was a minister, so I was exempt from the draft also. When your father left, he took all the money, didn't he? He took all the money you'd earned. Did you feel betrayed at that point? It's funny, I didn't, no.

20:31

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

I don't ask me why. You were a very forgiving child, weren't you? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a very religious trait, I think, to be able to forgive so easily.

20:40

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

He went out to California and started selling pots and pans. I worked for him and I had this little kit. I would go cold lock on door and sell. And I was a great salesman. I mean, those pans would stay with you. They did not leave the house. So what happened then to your sort of preaching circuit job when your father left? Whose decision was it to quit the circuit? I think it was just mutual.

21:08

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

They weren't getting along and the crowds had fallen off. The meetings weren't as big anymore. It just kind of collapsed. Right. And that was everything you'd known until then, wasn't it, really? That's right. Yeah, I got different odd jobs. I worked in a carnival. I worked at the boardwalk in Santa Cruz. And, you know, I got married when I was 16 years old. 16?

21:32

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

No, 15. I had to get a note from my mother. We went to Reno and married her and she got pregnant right away. So you were working at the carnival and you got married, had a baby. You're still effectively a child, aren't you? A lot going on in your life. And let's not forget, this is the late 60s. You're at the heart of hippiedom where you're living in San Francisco. How much of a hippie did you become?

22:01

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Well, I lived in a Volkswagen van and went up through Big Sur and I dropped acid. I became friendly with Dr. Timothy Leary. He liked me. And we were at the Monterey Pop Festival and I got to go backstage and sit right on the guitar speakers where Jimi Hendrix was playing. And that's when the Who first came to America, smashing all their instruments. I was right there on stage. So that was a whole bunch of fun. Wow. And quite a change from your previous life.

22:30

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Exactly. Were you in touch with your parents at that time? Did they know how you were changing? No, I was not. Why was that? I don't know. I was not in touch with them. I wanted to do something on my own. That life was gone and changed my life. But I was running out of money and I sold shoes for a while. And I said, you know, I'm not going to live my life this way. And I decided to go back to preaching. It's the only thing I knew.

22:53

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

But I wanted to preach a flower gospel about a beautiful Jesus and all my hippie stuff, you know. So I called a couple of old churches. They'd come back and I preached and they went completely dead. In fact, the pastor came and said, Mr. Gortner, it's lovely, lovely what you're saying, but unless you're going to do the old stuff, I don't think our crowd is interested. So then I went right back into hell with the lid off again. Right, right. Okay. The fire and brimstone stuff. Right, right. This was...

23:21

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Not a religious impulse then. This was because you needed money. That is correct, yes. And then I was at a church, I believe in Indiana somewhere. And, I mean, I had five people. There was nobody there. And then I saw an ad in the paper that Jerry Lewis was playing at this nightclub, the singer. And I knew he was the son of a preacher, a preacher family. And so I went right down front and I said, Brother Lewis, my name is Brother Marjo Gordner.

23:50

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

He kind of seemed to know who it was. I said, I'm out here starving. This is, say, on a Tuesday or Wednesday night. And I said, if I could announce that you'll come out to that church and sing Amazing Grace on Sunday, unpack the place and make some money because I've got a Corvette automobile that's about to be repossessed. And he said, I'll be there, son. Wow. So I went back. Last night I went down to the hell's.

24:13

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

And I knelt with Brother Jerry and we prayed. And he's going to be here on Sunday. Oh, my God, what if this guy doesn't show up? And come Sunday morning, children, children in the aisles. I mean, the place was packed. Loudspeakers outside to hear it. And we went and all of a sudden, this white Cadillac turned out he had a different color Cadillac for every day of the week. Sunday was white. And he goes in on this thing. And when he rolled his hands down and sang Amazing Grace, it was just beautiful.

24:41

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

You know, I took in probably $2,000 or $3,000 instantly. Wowee, so you really hadn't lost your touch. I mean, did you take to the stage now? Well, he helped me. I mean, I had a little jump start. Did you take to the stage with a bit of sort of, you know, rock-inspired swagger after that? Yes, absolutely.

25:00

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

I've seen footage of you in your tight white trousers and your fancy shirts putting on your show. I mean, you were quite hip for an evangelist preacher, weren't you? Yes. You really were. Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Lift up your hands and worship the Lord. Praise him tonight.

25:25

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Hallelujah. Oh, God is so real tonight. If you can't feel the Holy Ghost tonight, man, you're dead and you don't know it. Why don't you worship the Lord tonight? Oh, lift up your hands and praise him. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Oh, thank you, Jesus.

25:45

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

A big difference between this time around and first time around was that the first time you were a little child and you were being managed by your parents and directed. This time I'm doing my own deal. You are. And this time you're fully aware that you don't believe in what you're saying, that you are spending your free time in what you were describing on stage or in the church as hell's chamber. You know, you were...

26:12

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Right. Enjoying the music and enjoying the drugs and enjoying the hippie lifestyle and then preaching against it. And you were taking money from people who believed you, believed you were speaking God's word. Right. But remember, the same thing applied. I had to make them feel good. They didn't give me the money until I was finished. No money in advance. So the money they gave me, they wanted to do it. I take your point that you were entertaining them and that they were only paying you if they wanted to. Correct.

26:42

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Did you entertain any doubts about whether what you were doing was honest? No. No doubts at all? I just want to make them feel good. The sermon was a song, and if I did it right and jumped up and down, they would feel good and I would take up a free will collection. So I'm just really fascinated by this point. So it really didn't bother you that you didn't believe what you were saying to them? No. As long as they enjoyed it? That's correct.

27:10

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Do you think you were typical of the preachers on the circuit? There were a lot of charlatans out there. Oh, yes, many of them. These guys, they were real scheistermeisters. Did you think of yourself as a charlatan? In a way, yes, I did, to be honest. I know you had some tricks of the trade. I know that you would make yourself...

27:38

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

look like you were sweating, to look like you were building up an energy. And didn't you have a trick once where you sort of put some... Yeah, there's a chemical that you can buy with sweat and I painted a cross and the cross would appear. On your foreheads? Yes. And people would say, oh, it's a miracle. That was also a good time to take a collection. Right. I mean, there's a certain cynicism to it, isn't there? What about the speaking in tongues? I know that happened during your sermons. What is behind speaking in tongues?

28:09

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

It's something, I don't understand it, but it's something that's done in Pentecostal churches. And usually someone talks in tongues and someone would interpret it. So, something like that. And then I would interpret, For yea, the Lord thy God has spoken to my people tonight, saying, Open up your wallets and give to my servant. You wouldn't say that, would you? Would you say that? Absolutely. It's so blatant.

28:37

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Yes. They loved it. Wowee. I mean, it really is extraordinary to hear. I want you to get out the largest bill that you have right now.

28:48

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

If you believe, if you don't have that much faith, then you shouldn't come down anyhow. Even young people, anyone who wants to come down, if you want to believe for someone in your life, I want you just to give. If a $20 bill is the largest bill you've got, then I want you to get that out. If it's a $10, I want you to get that out. If it's only a dollar bill, I want you to get that out. But I'm asking you to prove God with whatever the largest offering that you have tonight.

29:11

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Marjo was making enough money not to have to work for six months of the year. He'd return to his other life, live it up until the coffers ran dry, then hit the preaching circuit again. Until 1971, when he decided to quit after one last tour with a documentary film crew in tow. So what did you want that documentary to be about?

29:37

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

to really expose the business of religion. What had made you decide that you wanted to expose what was going on when this was how you had made your living and a very good living at that? I guess a certain amount of guilt did bother me a little bit. There's no particular moment where the trigger just went off. Okay, August 7th, March...

30:00

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Joe, roll two, 7254, motel or hotel scene. Slated. All yours. It's all mine. Fantastic. So you and the documentary film crew, they pretended to be...

30:13

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

followers of the church they recorded your sermons and the response that you got and they recorded interviews with you talking about some of the tricks of the trade what you and other people have been doing because everyone the whole reason for the whole thing is like can I get someone saved you know can I lead someone to Jesus can I you know win someone else and so you've got to like cut the locks I thought I'd get a wig you know I'd get a wig and I'd put it up and then during the shooting for the payoff at the end you know I would

30:41

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Just do sound and I'd rip off the wig and give myself to Christ. That's great, I can make a lot of money with you. If they ask you if you say it, instead, don't hesitate about it. Never say, well, yes, I'm the right way. Well, we want to help you and they'll want to lead you. Well, here, you want a little scripture, you know, maybe this will give you a little comfort. You just come right back at them, look a straight in the eye and say, yes, brother, I'm washed in the same blood as you. I mean, were you worried about...

31:09

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

being caught out during the filming, somebody saying, wait a minute, there's some other motivation for this filming? No, it never happened, no. I did my normal services and did the prayer lines and the healing lines and all of that stuff, and we just were documenting it all, that's all. Just going in and out of the two lives, I just don't want to do it anymore, what can I say? Sometimes I feel like I shouldn't.

31:37

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

get up and do repentance to the audience or something you know which like I have these fantasies a lot of times you go through like I'd really like to get up and uh just tell them what I really think or where you know where I'm really at what I'd like them to do then when I get up you know I go right into my sermon but things like this relieve my head at the time but I've been playing with that now for a couple of years and I just can't go on doing it like that anymore

32:04

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

What did you think was going to happen when the film was released and there you were going to be talking about exposing the pretty seedy underbelly to this business? Believe it or not, you'd think the churches would have turned against me, but it was so successful, I got invited back to several churches as a celebrity to preach and the house was packed. That's how...

32:27

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

As long as you're a success, you know, I was amazed at that. I don't recall any hate letters. No reaction. I mean, it's a curious thing, isn't it, that you put all this out there in the 70s. The cynicism on behalf of some of the preachers and the contracts and all the rest of it hasn't really made a difference. And in fact, what was more fringe at that time in the 70s is now massive in the United States.

32:56

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Correct. There's still out there these big mega churches. Most of these are in, you know, Texas and those kind of Indiana. But there's still some pretty big gospel guys out there, you know. There's preachers now that they preach what they call prosperity gospel. Because my God is a rich God, meaning you give all your money to me and then you will get rich along with it. I never went into that.

33:23

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

And I don't know how sincere they are at all. All I know is that they're really hauling in, you know, they're hauling in literally millions of dollars a month, big time. How did your parents respond to the things you'd been saying? Well, I wasn't really in touch with my parents. At all? No, not at all. I mean, you say you loved your mum, so why weren't you in touch with her?

33:48

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

I don't know. It just fell apart. I can't explain that. I didn't even know where to reach her, to tell you the truth. So did you and she never get back in contact again? No. When she was elderly and dying, she called once and asked me for money, and I declined. Oh. Why did you say no? I'd given her enough of my life. And your dad? Were you ever in touch with him?

34:19

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Yes, a bit, but not so much. It's quite sad, isn't it? Everything you lost. I don't think it's sad. I'm a happy person. I'm doing quite well. Okay. You do have a remarkable attitude.

34:36

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

I don't think we've even mentioned that this documentary won an Oscar. I mean, it was a massive success. That is correct. That is correct. I never made a penny off of that, by the way. Not one dime did I get paid for that. No. You did do well out of it in some ways. You were the darling of liberal America after that, weren't you? On all the chat shows. Yes. Dick Cavett, Johnny Carson. I did the search.

35:00

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Yeah, and enjoyed it, I'm guessing? Oh, yeah, very much. I think you enjoy most things, don't you? Yes, I try to. And, of course, you were able to launch an acting career off the back of that as well. Yes, a limited while, yes. Quasi-successful, made about 15 films, was on a series called Falcon Crest. Oh, yes. Stuff like that. Yeah. And what kind of roles did you play?

35:27

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

Usually the bad guy. I had a nice, there was a movie with Charlton Heston called Earthquake. And I was in that, I was the National Guardsman, you know, looting the town and shooting up everybody, that kind of stuff. I wonder why you played the bad guy. No idea. No? No, no. No, in Falcon Crest, no, I was the great Carlotti, the lover of Emma. So I was like a guru.

35:54

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

type of a war little turban and stuff like that. Okay, well, I guess the guru part came quite naturally. I mean, did you find that there was a lot of similarities between your preaching career and your acting career? Yes, yeah. Almost like a lifelong training, really, wasn't it, to be a Hollywood actor? Exactly, yes, exactly. So you are, I think I'm writing saying 78 now. Yes. Do you ever, I mean, I know we're talking now about this rather,

36:26

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

extraordinary life you've had, but do you ever in your quiet moments look back on it and reflect on what it means? Yes, and I feel fortunate, again, that I just wasn't raised like one of those little kids in Ohio and grew up and got married and went to work in a lumberyard for the rest of my life, you know. I had a very colourful, vivid...

36:53

S… Speaker 2 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

life of traveling, met a lot of great people, you know. So...

36:57

S… Speaker 1 (Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon)

I'm thankful. And I always try to put a positive spin on things. So no regrets? No, none. Marjo Gordner. The clips we heard were all from that 1973 Oscar-winning documentary Marjo. The producers were Howard Smith and Sarah Kanokan. Thanks for your company. We're always reachable at outlookatbbc.com. And we'll be back here again soon with another remarkable personal story.

Outlook-20220317-TheChildPreacherWhoExposedACon

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