Recording_153

0:00

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

We've been hoping that you should be earning soon. Yeah, we are, our group director says, I told you we want to procure three within next 12 months. Our director says no, we'll buy five. So when he says, the director says five, that means you can...

0:23

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_153)

get the confidence. We will buy it. Sorry, please. Why did you stop in 2015? The market or? Yes, the market was, no, the sheep was old. We had five sheep at that time.

0:44

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_153)

So four ships, all five ships, above 30. The dry dock due. So our management decided not to go for dry dock. And at that time, the charter was very low. You can hire a ship, charter rate was 5,000. And the ship's operating cost, because of old ways, it was almost also 5,000.

1:10

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Because this is a very big group in Bangladesh. I was going to say, tell us a little bit about Abu Kaye because it's a massive powerhouse group. I cannot. Give us just a little bit. Yeah, yeah. They started business in 1953.

1:26

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

First business was the local cigarette. It's called Biri. So if you ask anybody, they will not say Abun K group, they will say Abun Biri. Because that is the flagship organization. So it's still there. Akkish, was your competition in the cigarettes? No. Our competitor is British Bangladesh Tobacco. They are the main competitor.

1:55

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

So that is the, they started. Akis also started with this Biri. Biri. Biri. Yeah, you can say Biri. So, and then they had our founding chairman. He has only this Biri and some Kiri. Now, our group is running by the founding chairman, Sun. Okay. Elder Sun is the chairman.

2:25

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

We have four brothers, other managing director, deputy managing director and directors. The third generation also coming but officially they are not holding any portfolio in the group. They are just observing because the group is these four brothers. Do they split the businesses within the group between the brothers or not really? Sorry? Do they split the response? No, officially not split it.

2:54

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

But you see, most of the group, you see, they have some assets with all directors. And some of them have some personnel, like our chairman. He has one concern.

3:14

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

So the other director also, that is not the big one. All the big concern is within the group. The big concern is Abunbidi, that is tobacco. Abunbidi, Abunbidi, steel. Abunbidi, steel, two brands. One is flat, that is called the collocated sheet.

3:38

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

collagued sheet and the other one is the reformed one. And the second biggest one is shah cement. I am concerned with that one. Shah cement. They hire a lot of ships. Now this month I think maybe average 12-15 ships they hire. That's a lot every month.

4:04

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

Yeah, last year we have chartered 120 ships and that is not all for shah cement because the steel that we bring the import the scrap and melting then we made the billet raw material for the different baths. So that one also we chartered about four to five ships sometimes six seven also.

4:36

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

and then have the trading. Out of that, our chairman, honorable chairman, the personal proprietorship, that is also hired, what is, five, six ships. That is, maybe more, Parmat, I think, seven, eight. That is not the part of our group. That is the proprietorship of our chairman.

5:05

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

So the new vessel will be carrying your own cargo at all?

5:23

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

moving outside maybe sometimes say our cargo coming mainly from vietnam thailand and from the middle east okay so from here to vietnam i was in this era species if you get some cargo because that cargo also our you know the middle scale yes by product of this steelman so the broker they

5:51

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Yeah, they may hire our ship because our ship is going in ballast. Thank you. Thank you very much for wanting to work again with us. Thank you to Moeen for following up on that. Sorry, I didn't explain all the concerns. We have the ceramics that is called...

6:23

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

and ceramics product that is also here number two in bangladesh number one market leader is rt that is dubai based company the stella yeah you can see this one stella is our ceramics concern and we have the market

6:47

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

Still a bit right in here. I was in UK for one year in Churchill. Is it local here or Belgium? Belgium, yeah. From 1996 to 1997 I was in Churchill. Because I appeared at that time there was no professional exam in Bangladesh.

7:07

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

We have to go. When were you in South Shields? In when? 96 June to 97 June. I was in South Shields as well. Your second mate. Second mate. Which year? In 96? 76. 20 years before. 76 to 79. I see. You were very senior. A bit earlier. Very senior like that. Very senior.

7:39

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

It was a good place that year. The college was very good there. I don't know about, you say you are in 75. I went there in 76 to 79. At that time it was not very crowded. But in 96 it was very crowded. Yes, in our class 19 students.

8:02

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Nine is from Bangladesh, ten is from India and one is from British. So some of your colleagues from there will be back working here now that we will know of course. Some of your South Shields, fellow Bangladeshis will be back here working? No, most of my friends they migrated, some stay in the UK, four.

8:28

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

But a lot of people of your age that we talk to, they talk very fondly about South Shields.

8:54

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

USA, two in Singapore. All got the local passport. They are not Bangladesh. Only, I think, maybe six, seven weeks stay in Bangladesh. But then, I mean, if you have been chartering so many vessels, and now you have one, right? Do you think that you are going to build as well on the fleet? Yes, yes, yes. Our management, our director, they want to procure.

9:25

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

At least five ships within one year. Wow, that's a lot. But then do you think you will be buying the second hand or are you going to build one? No, not new one because we are not doing the business outside. We will carry our own cargo and our own cargo mainly dirty cargo.

9:46

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

this cement factory we have 15 ships about parma so that ships you don't need the new ships and also it's not the way it's not coming from very long

10:01

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

From Southeast or Middle East. So our target is always old ships. People become very busy. Do you come in from Krabi in Thailand? Our ships are visiting, but personally I didn't visit. This is probably one of your loading points. Yes, this ship. We have cargo now from Krabi.

10:25

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

But after this cargo, we finished this P&I on the central survey, we sent her to India to bring some cargo for our cement factory. Did you ever have a journey trade with Reliance in Egypt?

10:42

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

No. In terms of cements, they are quite big in terms of... No. Our main supplier from Vietnam is called SCB, I think. From Vietnam, Thailand, and from Middle Eastern country, Oman and UAE. Oman, UAE, and Yemen. Yes. And sometimes coming from...

11:11

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Pakistan and sometimes from Malaysia that is very less. We don't get the cargo from Vietnam. Yes, sometimes the cargo coming from China also. But not the clean car.

11:25

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

that additives of clinker you understand that clinker is 70% so the other 30% is like this that we input from the child yes we have a lot of members carry this but the clinker mainly we drink from Thailand, Vietnam and Middle East so just a few explanations here this is the Thais Adhaka team the Moynel and Ponderil Vicente team day to day

11:55

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_153)

myself in london with marlena looking after all your claims any issues that you have and your hull machinery insurers based in london yes anybody from other missionaries not this trip i see but i think they're probably coming later in the year so we'll make sure we come and introduce you to them yeah and uh tim lee's the claims team at the west of england as well marlena has just joined us i'll ask marlena to introduce herself a little bit

12:22

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

I'm a lawyer as per education. However, the last 12 years... Are you practicing lawyers? No, and that's the funny story because I followed a man. I fell in love. And he's not relocated to Norway. And so I did. Which means that I couldn't really practice law in Poland. And then I was looking for any job related with legal background in Norway. I see.

12:44

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

And then a company called Norwegian Hull Club. I have no clue who they were. I have even no clue what the hull was. But they were looking for a person with legal background for a position called adjuster. I didn't also know who is adjuster.

12:59

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

so i applied and i got in and then i started working as an adjuster so basically when the claim happens by the end of the day when all the invoices and costs were known it is adjusted by an adjuster so that's what i was doing for the first seven years and i was working with

13:19

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

various casualties across HAL portfolio, which means not only HAL and machinery, but also those of hire. So if the vessel, because of casualties, is deprived of income for a period extending, for example, 14 days, or war cases, many of these claims, they have been, they were landing on my desk. So I've seen not...

13:43

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

What I loved in my job was that I tried to reach a certain goal by using paragraphs to match my criteria and use them in the correct way. And that's also how I started talking to a shipowner because very quickly I realized that survey report is just a wording issued by a person who doesn't necessarily speak best English, at least not always.

14:09

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

who had either a good welcome on board or a bad welcome on board. So there are sometimes many assumptions. So it took me some time to learn how to work with a survey report. And this meant that very often I would actually give a call to a ship owner and discuss with them the content of the survey report. This is what a survey report states. What's your perception of that?

14:33

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

And this learned me that in order to look really into the case, you have to wear different pairs of shoes and different hats. And after doing adjustments for seven years, I said, okay, I would love to start helping ship owners even better. So I moved to claims team and I was responsible for our London office. And I was dealing with major casualties. Some of them you've probably seen in newspapers. But again, very often...

15:00

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

There was a person standing in my way to have a direct contact with the ship owner and this person was a broker. We protect you from your insurers. We're on your side, the insurers. So last year I said to myself, okay, I want to be even closer to the ship owners. I know hull and machinery inside out. I'm very much interested in P&I.

15:26

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

And I've been working with Tysers for quite some time on the same accounts. And I said, perhaps this would be my new way, you know, keep enemies closer. She fell in love with the company. No, I'm kidding. But we started discussing and that's how we just found it's a good match. So I do not know yet everything about P&I, but for example, I'm learning quite a lot. So why are you trying to Tyser?

15:54

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

I joined Fizerys two months ago. So I know all the insurance tricks, the Halland machinery tricks. So I think that I understand where Halland machinery underwriters can be more flexible, show the VP. I absolutely understand the adjustments and I know how different scenarios might play out.

16:20

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

And I still want to learn more about what I really love about my work because I'm not working with placing things yet. I'm just working with them in respect of policy wardings. So this is where is my skill. I like my policy warding watertight. But I'm just, I really love to help people. That's why I am in this business. Nice. Thank you.

16:42

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Mr. Tim. Me? Your club, your P&R club. Okay, my background, as you've heard, I went to see you originally. Before I ask you, why the waste is registered in Lusenbaugh instead of in the UK?

16:55

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Sorry, say again, why are they registered in Luxembourg and not the UK's company? You will find that nearly all the group P&I clubs are registered in European countries and as a result of Brexit, we have to have a registered office in Europe in relation to financial requirements. We have always been registered in Luxembourg. We were in Luxembourg, correct. We were always in Luxembourg. It's for tax purposes.

17:24

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

To make the money of the members go further. We are registered in Luxembourg. We have a physical office there. We have a director in Luxembourg. And we have two more staff. So it's not just a brass plate.

17:35

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

But the head office is in London insofar as the finance and the accounting. Everybody in London. Decision making. I see. We have a number of offices. So let me just explain then. So first about me. I was at sea for six years as you heard. I made it to second mate. I then came ashore and went to university and I studied law and economics. Law and where? Cardiff. Cardiff. UIST. And the University of Cardiff. And then I joined a law firm.

18:06

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

in Greece, in Athens. And in those days when I joined them in the 1980s, there was a lot of wet work. Salvage, collision, fire, strandings. That's when deductibles were about $20,000 or $30,000. So you only needed a generator problem if you had a hull-a-machine replay. So I did that job for 24 years.

18:30

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

And in the same building as my office was west of England. Obviously I knew them very well and I did a lot of jobs for them in those days. And they had a vacancy so I applied for that. So I joined west of England in Greece in their Piraeus office. And I worked there for 10 years. I then moved to London 8 years ago. So that's 18 years with west of England.

18:54

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

I joined the Eastern team and after eight years the previous my successor has moved on to become head of offshore so I took the role of head of the claims team for Eastern the Eastern team for West of England so geographically we deal with members from Eastern Europe up to Bangladesh anywhere in between

19:19

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

including the Middle East, we have a lot of members there. We have offices in New York, London, Piraeus, Luxembourg, Stockholm, Singapore, Dubai and Hong Kong. So we cover most of the world. West, as you no doubt know, is one of the 12 international group clubs.

19:44

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

We currently have about 120 million tons of membership, so we're a nice size, we're not one of the smaller clubs. Who is the leading IG club? Leading IG guard is the biggest. Guard is the biggest. Guard? Yeah, by far.

20:03

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

What is the position of who is? We're out in the middle. We're generally in the middle. We're somewhere in the middle. But we're in a good position because we're not super big and we're not too small that we have financial problems. Sorry? Who is too small? Number 10? Yeah, you've named it. I think Japan might be smaller.

20:29

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

American and Japan, they're quite small clubs but they're a bit more niche. So in the middle of the table there's quite a number of clubs which are around 110, 20, 30, 40 million gross. The good thing for you as a member is our record for the last year has been good. So we're expecting, they haven't released the figures yet, but we're expecting around 100 or just under 100% lost ratio.

20:57

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

which is quite good. Some other clubs have done a little better, some other clubs have done a lot worse. Over the past four or five years, we've done really well in terms of pool claims. I don't know if you know how pool claims work. Pool claims are these claims over $10 million. So as a club, we retain the first $10 million of a claim. So if you had a $9 million claim, we'd retain that. After $10 million, they go into the pool, which is all of them. So we've got a good record on the pool.

21:26

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

We only had one pool claim last year. We didn't have any for two years before. What was the accident? It was a wreck removal. What type of sleep? It was a general car, a bulk car. Pool claims are usually things like total losses and wrecks. You need to have a very serious casualty to become a pool claim. It's how clubs measure themselves against each other in terms of good underwriting you see.

21:54

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

That's it, yeah. We could be 200 million if we took all the business, but we don't want to. As Chris says, we're quite careful as to...

22:10

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

I would say generally it's probably more bulk carriers than others. We have a range of them. Bulk carriers, tankers, we have quite a number of tanker owners. We do griefer ships. So the tankers, they carry more rigs for you? Yeah, we have a brief office. Not just the rigs. More rigs. Do you know tankers are actually...

22:36

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

Two things about tankers. One, all the pollution claims you have are not from tankers, they're from dry cargo ships. Very rarely pollution is from tankers, it's always the other ships. And two, they are generally unproblematic in terms of claims experience.

23:20

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

If you ask me what is the worst risk these days I would say the big container ships. The big ones.

23:26

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

What is the percentage of your insured container ships? I would say 15% is container, maybe less. We used to have a significant container entry, but we had two pool claims with one of them.

23:57

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

So in terms of our risk profile, as Chris says...

24:13

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

We try to be careful. We try to be careful with our membership. I mean, we could get a lot more members, but we'd rather keep... Do you have any requirement that the tankers should be double-hulled for insurance? They're pretty much all double-hulled. You can't trade them. You can go to China with a single-hull, but I think you'll find they're all double-hulled now. Result from a casualty where there was like single-hull.

24:50

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

So we're quite careful in what we do, which is good for you as a member, so we spread the risk. We don't have significant risks by taking on.

25:00

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Owners who might have significant claims, so we're quite careful. We're quite careful. And for an owner, that's good. The other thing for us with West is that we have a lot of owners and vessels entered with West and Bangladesh, so they're invested in the country. They visit regularly. They know how Bangladesh is like to have things done. We have a wonderful working relationship with them, and that means that in the event of a casualty, you'll get in touch with them.

26:28

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

The reason the American Club traditionally has basically been the home for the very old bulk carrier.

26:36

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

And that's one of the reasons why the American Club's figures have been poor for many, many years. And the United Club, I don't know how much I understand, but they work on the basis of it's a mutual. So you're part of an exclusive club. So you're a member of the West of England Club, and they want you to have the best experience possible in this club. They're not looking to make a ton of profit every year. They need to raise enough money to run the club and manage the club and deal with any claims. And build up their reserves in case they have a big, big claim.

27:04

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

And as Tim said, any claims above $10 million get pooled together with all the other 11 international clubs. They can buy reinsurance as well to protect them. And they all pay a little bit of premium into the pool every year to buy the reinsurance that protects all the clubs. And the more claims experience you have within the pool and the more expensive that claims, the bigger your contribution. So someone like the American Club, they haven't had too many pool claims, but they have a terrible aging fleet.

27:33

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

And as these fleets become younger, people don't really want to be with the American Club anymore. Because they're going to pay, if you're paying, let's say, $100,000 at the start of the year, with the American Club, there's every chance that in two years' time, they'll come along and say, you owe us another $40,000. Because our performance in the year 2023 wasn't good enough. We need to raise a bit more capital, and we have the ability under our premium charging basis to levy a bit more money. So you get what we call supplementary.

28:02

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

calls and supplementary calls for you as a ship owner are your worst nightmare. So you have your budget for the year and how the shipping company is doing and insurance is a big area of expense and then suddenly you get a 30% bill from nowhere.

28:16

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

It doesn't go down very well. And that's why the American Club's income and tonnage entered with them has been steadily reducing because their performance has been bad. They tended to ensure all the old bulk carriers. That's why some of the owners that we now have here that are entered with the likes of West or with Skald, some of their earlier vessels many years back would have been American Club vessels. And someone like Vanguard, for example, as the fleet has become.

28:47

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

more modern, we've moved away from the American Club. But to get away from the American Club, you have to pay money to leave as well. Because there is a risk that you'll need to pay more money in. So it's not easy to leave and it's a financial commitment to leave as well. But once you're away, you kind of think, thank God I'm done, you know. Now we can move and live and enjoy. So the American Club, and they're also extremely fussy and difficult on planes. They do not fund any sort of plane payment.

29:17

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

I know there's a rule within the PNI which says pay to be paid, which basically means you have to pay the claim first, then they'll indemnify or reimburse you. But on a practical level, if there's a screw injury claim or a small cargo claim, quite often the clubs will debit you the deductible and they'll make the payment. Because they know they're going to pay the claim and it's, let's get it done quickly. But the American club, they just don't have any flexibility at all. When you're looking at a personal injury claim,

29:43

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

If you're in claim of the West you will have your hospitalisation and if there's a correspondent engaged then the correspondent will look at the invoices and say these are all fair and we used to offer the treatment in this hospital and that there. You'll have your repatriation possibly the new crew member going out.

30:00

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

It will all be added up, the receipts will be attached and the club will say thanks a lot, the money is coming into you again. With the American club, not only will they want to see all of that, they will want to see evidence of your payment for each of these items. Not confirmation payments being made, evidence that you have paid. So they want to see copies of the cheques or copies of your bank statements redacted showing the payment for wages in December. This is the payment.

30:29

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

unbelievable lack of trust in their membership and it's because they've been dealing with members at the lower end of the shipping community that they treat everyone with great suspicion and actually if you're part of a club you should kind of trust each other here so that's a really important differentiation that when you're working with someone like West you are part of the club and they want to keep the club exclusive so they could write another 20 million

30:58

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

by being stupid. They don't want to be stupid, they want to be sensible. We want them to be competitive, but we don't want them to be the cheapest out there, because if they're the cheapest, then they're not going to make money and they're going to ask you for more money later on. So it's a balanced ratio. If you have a machine around rice, on the other hand, they want to make profit. They'll still pay your claims, of course they will. We'll only put them to the best insurance, but their goal at the start of the year is to take in...

31:25

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

$500 million premium and to pay out $200 million. With the Western England P&I clubs, they want to just balance the books nicely. If they make too much profit, then they come under pressure from the membership to send some money back, which some clubs do do.

31:49

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

We did have the two BSC Lightridge tankers. Now? No, they exploded last year, remember? Jayoti and Ashura. The two Lightridge tankers. Oh, I see. They're both gone within a week. There was the American Club. American Club. We had the Vanguard vessels, which have now gone. We had MI Cement.

32:18

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Everyone pulled out from American Club. Because American Club is charging supplementary call, additional call, these, that, and everyone is very upset. Only now we have smaller vessel. Mega traders? Smaller fixed premium. Yes, Korean shipping, Shamail.

32:41

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

and that's primarily because one of the underwriter at the American Club in London used to be a claims handler with British Marine and he used to come with me to Bangladesh for many many years. Have you visited our office before? I don't think I have been to see you before. No, this office? No, I don't think so.

33:03

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

We were waiting for the nod saying we're flying ships and in we come. We kept walking past every visit. But Richard Lineker was the man and he was very fond of Bangladesh. Still is. And he actually helped us with the BSC settlements. They were all special. So they're still fond of Bangladesh but they've seen the writing on the wall, the feats. Because as the feats become more modern there's no reason to want to ensure we're democratic.

33:33

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

They were the sort of home of last resort, really. No, no, I'm not, because they're decent people.

33:42

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

and they're perfectly capable of handling a claim very, very well. We had five ships, we had up to 15, all the American class, and we had two, three claims. We got the, one is from, yeah, there was no problem. Whatever you see, there are two injuries. We had one defectation from Singapore. We got that claim. They're perfectly capable of handling a claim. Only thing I agree with you, I mean, that was sublimatical.

34:11

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Yes. Every time the call increases. That makes it hard to do with your management. That was the releasing call was about $75,000 for every issue. That was also releasing call. So you've got to go to your management saying, I need some more money, sir. I see. That's not easy, is it? Yeah. No, don't get me wrong with the remote club. They provide decent service on planes. They don't provide exceptional service.

34:35

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

I forgot his name. He was... I mean... John Hoare. John Hoare. John Hoare. John Hoare. John Hoare. John Hoare used to have some of the Vanguard vessels. No. He used to visit almost three months, six months this office. That's right. But he used to also work on Vanguard. I see. Where is he now? He's a BMS now. But he doesn't work in Bangladesh. I see. Where? Which company is your name? BMS. BMS.

35:00

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

And when I saw Captain Tahir about 18 months ago, he said to me, Chris, you come and see us five times a year. John Hall never comes to Bangladesh anymore. I can't still use John Hall. I'm going to use Thais as you and Boyle. No, the reason that John Hall, he was frequently visited in Bangladesh, because at that time, they don't have any local office in Bangladesh. Of course. They have to control HW. HW. And they have Sumana as well, didn't they? Yes.

35:29

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Sumona Alam. Alam shipping? No. There was no office in Bangladesh. She was their representative. Sumona Alam was their representative. But she was sitting in Singapore. Not here. Yes, she is in Singapore. But I think 10 years back she left actually representing them.

35:56

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

She has got other business.

36:24

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

prove to you that we could, is if something goes wrong. We hope that doesn't happen to you. But other than that, everyone will come in and say, we're the best program. Yes. We're the best program. This is the best program. And all you can be asked to do, really, is just talk to your friends within the industry who work with us. You see, our director, first thing he asked.

36:46

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

If anything happens, I'll get the money. Exactly. Because they are businessmen. Of course they are. And if they're going to invest valuable assets through Thaisers, they need to be sure that they're choosing the right company. And Moira has been doing this business forever. I've been coming here for over 35 years.

37:11

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

I reckon I have more than a hundred visits to Bangladesh now, you know what I mean? Yes. More than a hundred. Thank you. So, you know, we're a hundred times you visited. So we're coming here for 35 years. What is vibe? It's all our product. What is it? What's in there? What is this? This will keep you away until two in the morning.

37:36

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

Carbonated water. Refined sugar. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It would be the blue tablet, wouldn't it? The blue Smarty. All we could say is talk to your competitors.

38:06

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

and we hope you don't have too many problems. A few just to make sure we perform would be good but nothing seismic and nothing too expensive and ultimately we see ourselves as an extension of you. We don't expect you to fully understand your insurance policies. That's what you've got our purpose for and you've got a club. Clubs try and find a way to pay clubs.

38:31

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

you know they will interpret the rules to help you and we will work with you if there is an issue as an extension of your team so it's the minimum inconvenience for you we we had a claim the other week um it was a pollution claim in malaysia no no in russia which which was difficult tanker

38:57

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_153)

The crew opened the wrong valve and they made the pollution. Just to say what Chris was saying about trying to bring things within cover. What was the claim? All together it's going to be over a million. It's the environmental fine cleaning up costs. What I'm saying is this, is that we couldn't pay the fine because it would have been to the Russian authorities. It's breach of sanctions, we can't pay the fine.

39:26

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_153)

they had an environmental claim and the owner kept saying the environmental fine and I said look when you send me that don't put the word fine on it put environmental costs we can pay it as soon as you start writing the word fine you have any restriction the sheep of West England

39:48

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_153)

No, West has no geographical restrictions. You can trade anywhere you want, subject to the terms of your certificate. We make some certain geographical restrictions.

40:06

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_153)

We have a lot of members who trade in Russia. They can do it as long as they have the correct documentation. We have members who go to Iran before the war, but they can't now.

40:26

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_153)

i mean there has always been sanctions there's been sanctions on iran for 40 years now yeah but they can go there with certain cargoes that are allowed so just because there are sanctions doesn't mean you can't go there as long as the trade is permitted

40:40

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

and as long as it's not subject to restrictions. I was captain in the Indian ship, three Indian ships. Wow. So they had this IG club insurance. Because I was master, I knew. I had to cover this. There was no problem. Same ship or what? No, we used to insure irisil. We insured irisil. I think it's Bermuda. IOTC.

41:03

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

But at that time, it was after 2006, they had 90 ships. It was an attractive territory. One of my colleagues was all set to head to Iran. We were in the process of being bought by an American private equity firm. They said it's probably not the right timing. Many years back, Iran was a very attractive place to visit. Good fun, young, beautiful climate.

41:30

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

No, what I mean, after 2006 or 2007, the restriction or embargo US sanction was released.

41:39

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Because I was there in 2006, and they were trading every year, they were buying sheaves, they were maintaining this IZ Club, Ajax, there was no problem, they were trading normally. And from 2006, 2007, they had the same. Well, Iraq was a bad buy, wasn't it, at the time, really? We have a number of Iraqi members. Yeah, but it was Iraq. Iranian hostages, and then Iraq.

42:07

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_153)

but we used to insure the iranian fleet it was during the days of obama and the jpoc i see so we insured irisil and we insured uh iotc which year it was i was a claims handler at the club at the time i used to deal with irisil no no i mean i'm just trying to think which year so it was it would have been 18 years ago yeah yeah it would be that period and then trump came in

42:34

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

The first time. When you go to Russia though, you can go there, but there's a lot of expectation of you as a ship owner to do the right diligence with the cargo you're living. You have to ask the right questions. We're covering fertilizer shipments from Russia to China. You've got to find out exactly who's shipping it, who the receiver is. The identification of the cargo is important because the sanctions do list the particular cargo in this code. Without that information...

43:05

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

The underwriters can't sign off on the mortgage. But for the sanctions, what it's called is a non-delegable duty. So you can't just expect your insurers to do the due diligence. You as the ship owner going there have to do your own checks as well. And that's where some of them fall down. Some are very, very good. Sanctions checks through the law firms are quite expensive if you're doing a lot of them. And you might be doing them speculatively. You may be hoping to pick up this cargo. Can we do this sanctions check? Oh, that's $3,000, $5,000. Didn't get one.

43:34

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

You can't afford too many of those, otherwise it eats into your working capital. So it's onerous to go there. And the difficulty is that there's no restrictions from the PNI perspective, but the ability to respond is definitely hindered depending upon where you are. Same with Iran, same with Russia, same with Venezuela. Even if it's legitimate trade, some of the banks don't like to process transactions that engage in. So if you said on a remittance advice, you know, Venezuelan claim payment.

44:05

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

The banks would go, oh, we're not paying that. Even though it might be an aid target, a food target. You're just going to get into trouble, so it's delays. You can make more money going to some of these places, but you have to take the risk. So anyway, we wanted to come and say hello. Thank you very much for...

44:29

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

Welcoming us. Thank you very much for appointing us. Thank you for your friendship with Moyen as well. Long time. Of course. Long time. Friendship. 15 years. This is the team. Moneral leads the team daily. Sorry. Very hard work. Morning. Very close to your office. So next time we see it. Can you move into the other office please? Are you from the UK? UK, yes. But it looks like not as you.

45:02

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

He looks like a British. What do I look like? You look like a Norwegian. Norwegian? I'll take that. From which part of the UK? Just outside London. Very close to London. Where I live? I live in the east of London. I live in the Bangladeshi Asian area of London. It's the east. My next door neighbour is a Bangladeshi eye surgeon.

45:29

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

I see. His wife is an accountant. I see. So, traditionally, you know, when Baghdad Shippen Corporation had an office, they had it in Romford, Ilford in London, which is East London. Yes, I was in Bangladesh Shippen Corporation. Okay. Did you ever go to the office in the UK? No, I didn't go. I was a chief officer. I didn't visit the office. Okay.

45:48

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Well, my house is about six miles from there, so I live in that eastern part. As the Bangladeshi community has become more wealthy, they've moved themselves out of inner London, Smyle End, Bethel Green, and they're now further out, and they're now where we are. Whitechapel is where it starts. Yes, it is. As you drive out of London... And Mr. Tim, you're from which place? I'm from London also. But then where are you studying in the north?

46:19

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_153)

In those days I used to live by Birmingham in the Midlands. I went to Nautical College in South Shields and I went to University in Cardiff. But you are from South? I'm from the Midlands in the centre. What is that place? It's a place called Wolverhampton. I'm from Wolverhampton.

46:49

S… Speaker 3 (Recording_153)

But now I live in London, of course. This young lady here is from Poland.

47:03

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

Then it was Bergen, the most rainy city in whole Europe. But your education is on the law. You study in law. Yeah, I studied law in Poland. Exactly. So it was nothing for shipping. But you didn't get the practicing lawyer? No, I never came to practice because my last year of studies I actually had to do it remotely. So because it's already done, I was living in Norway.

47:31

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

My first studies was French-Lingles. I loved French, I loved teaching. But it's not law? No, it's not law. So then I started studying law. And the last year of my university, I did remote. So I was just flying for the exams. And this was probably the hardest year because it's so much easier if you attend the classes and then you know what the exam will be about. Pre-children? Two children, yes. At the time? No, no, no. Pre-children. Pre-children, yes.

48:02

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

so that makes it a bit easier yeah it makes it a bit easier so then it was i think that the last year was really the year where i started partners because then i really had to know the books inside out to pass everything what i had to pass so that's why and now she's relocating the whole family we're very lucky to have her she's married to some british guy but no no not yet

48:31

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

But how you migrated? Because of this station, job station? Yes, so I really wanted to, so we started, I think we started talking in April about hire. And then the thing was that I really had good work, but I just wanted to have more. And, you know, I knew that my decision would influence the whole family. And I wanted the best for my children. So there was a lot. You still didn't have grown up? They are now 8 and 11. How can they be?

49:01

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

Yeah, come on You know now there are all these tricks But yeah, so I have relocated with my children now and we live We live actually close to Greenwich area, so we live south from the river But so far it's just

49:24

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

South? South? North East? No, from North East. East? No, from London. I see. Maybe that's why, because you live closer to Norway. Maybe, maybe. No, if he is from Scotland, South, North, Scotland. No, not Scotland, Ireland. Scotland, yes. Scotland's high in Denmark. Yes. We do a lot of...

49:51

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Client in Orkney I don't drink whiskey

50:00

S… Speaker 2 (Recording_153)

He said, Chris, do you like whiskey? And I said, I cannot drink whiskey. I think I have an allergy to it. And he said, OK, I have to find someone else then. Because he said, we're going to visit. And there's distilleries. And I've never drunk whiskey to this day. I don't like whiskey. You didn't touch anything. No, I did. I had these. I'm allergic to this. Everything? No, no. The orange, I'm just. No, this one is intact. You can try this. I know. I just, I've had the greats. I had six courses for lunch. No, I had three, so. You tried this over some weeks.

50:29

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

But can I ask you, are you originally from Chittagong or what's your like... Yeah, yeah, I am from Chittagong. Chittagonian? No, it's not Chittagonian, that was the big street. I am from, if you say administrative district is Chittagong, but that is the border of Chittagong. This place was originally from Noakhali. Noakhali? Yeah, where I was. But it was for about...

50:57

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

100 years, 150 years I think, before, it was under Chitabha. And that the British people, when they ruled this area, they put this, you can say, what we call the sub-district, same like the borough, on the sub-district, we call it, we call it Bhusira. So that was under Noakhali. They put the Noakhali to collect the tax for salt.

51:28

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

And after 1954, there was a long history, there was an election, general election. And somebody wins, somebody loses. The losing party says, okay, I go with the Nuwakali. He says, I'm going with the Shri Togong. So, if you say my tradition, my language slang is from Nuwakali. And the people from this Shri Togong, they are mainly from Arakan.

51:56

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

They have slang, local language, and the Nohakali language is totally different. Do you have children? Grown up children. But they would say they're from Chittagol. No, impossible. My eldest son, he did his graduation from Malaysia. My second son studied in Melbourne, Australia. But they would say they're from Chittagol, not from Nohakali.

52:21

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

My son was born in the UK. My wife was with me in 1996. Does he support Newcastle football club? No. He was born there but I left the UK in 1996.

52:47

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

Sorry, 97. He got a British passport then? No. He didn't. No, no. He could though? It was up to 1992. Ah, okay. My daughter was born in 97. 97. How many years did you live in the UK? I was living in the UK one year for my... Do you have any advice to share with me? He's back here, look. Everything. No, I share because I did my... When I joined here...

53:17

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

And I did this, from University of London. University of London, you have one external program. If somebody, I don't know, you have the knowledge. Queen Mary College or? No, no, no. University of London. Where's the campus? No, it's the external program. Okay. You admit, sorry, get the admission. Okay. That is called the...

53:47

S… Speaker 1 (Recording_153)

University of Lodipi external program.

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