2026-06-03 14-01-21
Jun 03, 2026 17:47
· 32:07
· English
· Whisper Turbo
· 3 רמקולים
תעתיק זה פג תוקף ב 2 ימים.
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
oh sorry hello how are you doing i'm okay and you man i'm
0:05
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
doing good no complaints on my end uh appreciate you taking some time on this
0:09
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
afternoon to chat with me um the goal really is to
0:12
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I spend the time we got here chatting,
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
getting to know you a little bit from project experience,
0:17
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
technical skills.
0:17
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
We're not going to do anything hands -on here,
0:18
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
so we'll use whatever time we need.
0:20
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
We might need a half hour,
0:21
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
might need 40 minutes.
0:22
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Maybe we'll take the whole hour.
0:23
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I don't know.
0:23
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Let's just see.
0:24
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Ultimately,
0:25
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I just kind of want to have a conversation with you and get to know a little bit more about what you've been doing
0:30
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
in your career so far.
0:31
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
um before we start we'll do some intros i'll introduce myself and my role through or my role
0:35
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
at you know group and why you're chatting with me um then i'll pass it you to introduce yourself
0:40
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
and then we'll just dive into the conversation that sound good okay nice perfect well
0:44
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
my name is jory i'm the vp of employee development and an engineering manager at you know group
0:48
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
um all that fancy title really just means i do a lot less day -to -day development for our
0:52
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
clients and really now more working with our people working internally
0:56
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
with the folks at Janelle Group,
0:57
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
helping find folks like yourself who are trying to join us.
1:00
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
And then,
1:00
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you know, working directly with several of the folks here.
1:03
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Work very close with a lot of our younger devs,
1:05
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
interns and associates,
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
helping them bridge that gap between what they're learning in school and how we operate
1:10
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
in the real world.
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
And also work very closely with most all of our Latin
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
American devs.
1:16
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
That's been something that we've been growing over the past couple of years.
1:19
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
And I've kind of been at the forefront of that with our very first pod of Brazilian developers
1:23
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
all the way up to
1:25
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
uh now where we have over 45 latin american devs working with us um
1:29
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
and i work very closely with pretty much all of them so that's really why you're talking
1:33
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
with me um and in my part of janelle group so why don't you choose
1:37
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
yourself
1:38
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Yeah, okay.
1:38
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So I'm Lucas.
1:39
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I'm here from Brazil,
1:40
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
a state called Espirito Santo,
1:41
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
which is close to Rio and Sao Paulo.
1:44
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
And yeah,
1:45
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
basically my experience is with Unity.
1:47
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I'm basically a Unity dev for the most part.
1:50
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I was contacted by Nial about this role on LinkedIn.
1:54
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So it's a role that has C++ and Lua.
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I think because I have this most personal experience with
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
C++ and Lua,
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
not like professionally.
2:05
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So stuff that I like to study on my own.
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
But basically,
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
my career is more like...
2:10
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I started with doing VR,
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
AR, WebGL,
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
mobile stuff,
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
serious games at this first company.
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So for corporate training.
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So if a factory,
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
for example,
2:23
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
wanted some simulations,
2:24
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
we did it and saved the data and showed them,
2:28
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
stuff like that.
2:29
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So basically,
2:30
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
simulations and serious games in general.
2:32
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
everything that they needed.
2:34
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Then I went to this other,
2:37
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the second company called Blue Gravity and it was more focused,
2:40
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
completely focused on entertainment games.
2:42
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
There I worked on two games.
2:44
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
It was like Albert Ark and Draft Fever Ball.
2:48
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Albert Ark is more like a cookie clicker game so I joined it in
2:52
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
a late stage of development it was pretty buggy
2:57
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
like that so I spent like one month there just fixing
3:01
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
stuff in general any part of the application
3:05
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the game and then the project come to a halt and
3:10
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it was launched later but wasn't on it anymore come to a halt and then I was on
3:14
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
this dread fever ball which
3:17
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
It's a visually realistic game of football
3:21
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
manager style,
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
American football.
3:23
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
And there I was doing like systems and UI
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
for most part.
3:29
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So we need a way to have these cards and
3:33
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
drag these cards to the field and create the team and save this team,
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
save this data.
3:37
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So, okay,
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I need the UI and systems for that.
3:40
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So I basically did that.
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I think one of the most...
3:43
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
coolest thing that I did was basically the character
3:47
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
generator because every week had a draft day
3:51
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
so it needed random characters and then I did all of that
3:55
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
part of generating using specific blend shapes so a black person
3:59
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
has this kind of blend shapes this kind of hair color,
4:03
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
skin tone, stuff like that I did the customizations
4:08
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
as well
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
equipping different jersey helmets colors
4:14
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
patterns etc accessories all everything related to that
4:18
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
and saving this data and stuff like that as well and then my my uh
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
latest experience is that nurture it is a educational
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
game let's like that uh real life skills what they call so
4:31
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it's not like school subjects more real life stuff uh and it's
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
a mobile game and then i started doing like the mini games the gameplay uh
4:40
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
so because the game is basically uh
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
playable directors,
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
basically cinematics and minigames.
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So I did
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the minigames for the most part drawing on the character,
4:53
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
building a car,
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
drag and drop stuff,
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
customizing stuff here and there.
5:00
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
and then later i was shifted a bit uh to the
5:04
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
ui part again uh which basically revamping the ui
5:08
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
they want to revamp the onboarding because the the game as it
5:12
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
focuses on children has a big part on the onboarding because of parents
5:16
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
and stuff like that and then payment google login analytics
5:21
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
this kind of implementations got google sign in push
5:26
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
notifications stuff like that
5:29
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
so yeah and then a bit of tool here and there QA commands
5:33
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
for the QA guys to test the game instead of uninstalling every
5:38
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
time they could just run some commands and stuff like that so more or less a generalistic
5:42
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
but most of the most parts like UI and this other bug
5:46
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
fixes here and there on the on this nurture app
5:50
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
summarizing everything yeah yeah i appreciate that nice well what are you um
5:54
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
what are you looking for next why are you interested in um making a change
5:58
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
i guess what's got you interested in janelle group in this role yeah cool
6:02
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
uh so i'm very interested in switching
6:06
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
a bit uh from unity to other languages and
6:11
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
i have interest in this other language that's why i try to study on
6:15
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
my own when i have time uh and
6:18
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
uh first of all channel group looks like a really really cool company
6:22
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
but i was looking at the instagram i saw you there on the kitchen
6:26
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
area interviewing the guys the interns i guess at the video was
6:30
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
uh yeah yeah uh and that oh like that that's that's really
6:34
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
cool and i want you to make that that switch too if possible uh
6:38
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
as well i have interest in growing for the most
6:42
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
part uh that's why i i've been searching for for new things
6:47
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
as well
6:48
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Gotcha.
6:48
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Okay.
6:49
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
It makes sense.
6:50
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Sweet.
6:50
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
And yeah, I mean,
6:51
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
this would definitely still be in the,
6:52
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
in the unity space,
6:53
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
but a different,
6:54
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
a little bit different of a flavor with using potentially,
6:57
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you know, C++ and Lua,
6:59
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
um, primarily it seems like,
7:01
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
which is kind of new to me.
7:03
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
You know, I've done,
7:04
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I've worked with,
7:04
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
uh, or interviewed and worked with some folks that are in unity using C sharp.
7:08
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So I was a little surprised to see C++ as like,
7:11
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
uh, kind of the,
7:12
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the core language here along with Lua.
7:14
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Oh yeah.
7:17
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
gotcha nice well it's let's talk about the tech a little bit um i assume you know what
7:21
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you've been working i assume obviously you know okay resume heavy in the unity space uh
7:25
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
c sharp i guess talk to me about
7:27
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
that, the tools,
7:29
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the technologies that you're using and comfortable with.
7:31
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Yeah,
7:32
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
basically, most comfortable with Unity,
7:34
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
C -Sharp, like you said,
7:36
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
have a minor experience with .NET as well,
7:39
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
creating some basic APIs on that first company.
7:41
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
We need some RESTful APIs to,
7:44
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
because the guy that made the APIs left,
7:46
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
so we needed someone to do something to pass that information
7:50
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
around about the trainings and simulations.
7:52
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
And C++ on my own.
7:57
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
stuff uh studying uh lua it's it's a bit uh
8:01
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it's a very small uh experience
8:05
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
that i had because i used this because c++ uh came from because i
8:09
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
like to study this opengl book that i that i have and so
8:14
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you do c++ and then i i was interested in using it more so okay
8:18
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
which engine use c++ today so there's a bunch but i focus on
8:22
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the flex engine which is called and they use c++
8:25
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
uh there and it was really cool crashing the engine every time because of some memory
8:29
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
allocations wrong uh and then uh that's
8:34
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
my experience and then lua was like okay let's try this lob2d uh frame
8:38
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
i think it's not considered an engine but let's say it looks up it's an engine so i
8:43
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
use lua there to make a simple game uh and yeah
8:47
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
i think my my tech stack floats around this stuff gotcha
8:53
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Awesome, okay.
8:54
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Well, talk to me,
8:55
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I guess, walk me through a project that you've,
8:59
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
one of the games that you've worked on or project that you've worked on that makes sense and just kind of talk to me a
9:03
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
little bit about, more about what the project was,
9:06
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
what your role was,
9:07
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
timelines,
9:08
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
stuff like that and just kind of dive in a bit there.
9:10
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Okay,
9:11
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I think more folks said,
9:13
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I think it was the...
9:15
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
blue gravity with draft fever where i worked with most focusing on ui
9:19
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
and systems there so basically the the day -to -day and the timeline was
9:24
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
okay you join in you need to make this team screen uh add
9:28
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
this character add this team generate these cards generate this this players
9:32
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
and stuff like that so being doing that then okay now we have this uh match
9:37
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
system so we have next days and next weeks we have the team to
9:41
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
show
9:42
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
this next games so instantiating everything and then
9:46
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
showing to the player to the correct player getting this team reference
9:50
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
getting the the api reference as well getting the the data uh
9:54
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
then i went to the character creation
9:59
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
then
10:00
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
and character customization as well.
10:02
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Creating the sprites,
10:06
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
because every character had to have these screenshots of their faces
10:10
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
to show on the card.
10:11
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So creating these textures as well,
10:13
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Speaker 3 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I think.
10:14
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
And then I spent the whole time.
10:16
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
And then the game had...
10:19
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
pretty big hit on performance as well we did uh i want to say we
10:23
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
because it was me and the other guy on that part did a performance check uh
10:27
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
study using the profiler the
10:32
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
friend debugger and stuff to see where it was most heavy and was
10:36
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
with what's happening because it was pretty pretty heavy and yeah let's
10:40
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
say ui and uh performance on that part i don't know if
10:45
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
i answered your question correct no i think i mean i
10:49
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
just kind of asked to dive through a project how big was the team that you were working on and what
10:53
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
was the timeline yeah uh i think i spent like one
10:57
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
one year there at blue gravity the team was
10:59
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I think 15 people.
11:01
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
It had like four programmers for
11:05
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the simulation part,
11:06
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
two for the UI,
11:09
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
me and the other guy,
11:10
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
one for the back -end,
11:11
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the modelers and animators as well,
11:14
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
were there,
11:15
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
a project manager.
11:17
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
yeah this this this team currently my
11:21
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
team is like reduced on this on nurture it's like three developers counting
11:25
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
me and the lead which doesn't program that much so basically two aqa
11:30
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
and a uh manager as well so yeah
11:34
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
no no i didn't work on pretty pretty big teams i think the max
11:38
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
was 15.
11:38
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
yeah
11:43
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Okay, nice.
11:43
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
What was the biggest technical challenge or something they were most proud of
11:48
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
maybe accomplishing?
11:48
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I think the technical challenge was
11:52
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
because some guys had created this texture generator
11:57
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
for their part of the game and it was like every time we hit
12:01
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
that scene or pass through that,
12:03
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
all the...
12:05
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the memory raised up a lot and didn't decrease you could change scenes
12:09
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
could go through and didn't decrease so okay uh what what it's
12:14
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
happening so they were generating the textures but uh these textures
12:18
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
i was searching about it and then okay let's see on the memory profiler and the texture
12:22
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
were all there uh even though we don't use it anymore so left
12:26
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the scope right so why it's here so uh took some time to to understand
12:30
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
and there's a japanese
12:32
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
unity from unity but japanese uh video i need to watch it with uh
12:36
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
closed captions and subtitles and it says like okay if
12:40
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you don't destroy call destroy on the object and call uh and set it to know
12:45
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
c sharp will never get this never activate the garbage collection this
12:49
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
will stay in memory for the home as long as the game is there so like okay that
12:53
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
took some time to to understand but uh to to debug
12:57
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
but it was quick to
13:00
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
to fix right another one that it's a bit hidden is like
13:04
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I don't know if you have Unity experience I'm basically telling my experience right so I don't
13:08
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
know if it makes much sense to you but let's say like that Unity has
13:12
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
this stuff called scriptal objects and has this stuff called addressable so addressable
13:16
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
is this thing you pack some objects assets
13:20
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
etc in assets models and then when you want to use it to download
13:24
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it could get from the the hard drive or the
13:27
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the cloud right normally they use for the cloud so choose the dlc content or
13:31
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
download it uh so when you download an app from the store it's
13:36
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
not like one one gigabyte so it starts downloading when you when you
13:40
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
start the game so basically when you have when you run
13:44
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
editor these things aren't separated at all so you can reference the stuff
13:48
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
but when they are separated into the bundles after the build,
13:51
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
when you try to reference something,
13:52
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you're in the bundle one and you reference something from bundle two,
13:56
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Unity creates a copy of it,
13:59
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
so you reference it,
14:00
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
but in reality it's just a copy of it,
14:02
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
so two exist at the same time,
14:04
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
they have the same data,
14:05
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it's like,
14:06
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
ah, this don't exist,
14:08
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it's new,
14:09
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it's tough, but when you look into it,
14:11
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it existed and it was there,
14:13
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
so...
14:13
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
basically when unity uh you reference stuff from two different bundles it
14:18
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
creates some copy so it's a pretty annoying to to understand and
14:23
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
stuff uh and yeah i think some some
14:27
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
stuff like that i don't know if i talk too much there is like unity hair system
14:31
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
as well that we used and was very insane to
14:35
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you to work with yeah
14:39
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
sir that makes sense um gotcha nice well let's uh let's
14:43
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
talk let's have some let's dive into some conversation about you know this role in
14:47
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
particular so this like i said this role is a little interesting in the sense that it is a c plus plus base
14:51
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
role with lua um you know and it seems like a lot of your experience and probably
14:55
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
most people's experience using um you know unity probably in the c sharp
14:59
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
world
15:00
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
from what I've seen,
15:00
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
at least.
15:01
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So you don't choose only C sharp yet.
15:04
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Yeah, which is interesting.
15:06
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
And it does seem like you can compile it down to C Sharp.
15:08
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
But yeah,
15:10
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it's an interesting one.
15:10
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So I guess talk to me,
15:11
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you know, one of the things,
15:13
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
one of the unique parts,
15:14
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I guess, well,
15:15
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
maybe not one of the unique parts,
15:15
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
but one of the parts of Unity and C Sharp in general is that,
15:18
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you know, you get the garbage collector.
15:19
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Memory is kind of managed a bit for you.
15:22
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Obviously,
15:23
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
there's things you want to avoid to avoid potentially,
15:26
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you know,
15:28
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
causing garbage collection spikes and causing issues there.
15:31
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
C++ doesn't have that,
15:33
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
but they do have their other memory concerns.
15:35
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Talk to me about how does your experience using
15:39
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the garbage collector translate to the C++ world,
15:43
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
where you kind of have to do a lot of that yourself.
15:45
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Yeah, sure.
15:46
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
As I said,
15:47
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the memory stuff and the garbage collection stuff is not a really common knowledge about
15:52
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
that, so people don't really worry about...
15:54
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
destroying text, everything is really automatic.
15:57
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
But as Unity works with C++ at the same time,
16:00
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it works with C Sharp,
16:01
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
things get convoluted,
16:03
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
and it could get this kind of behavior that described you,
16:05
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
that things not getting released.
16:07
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
But yeah,
16:08
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
when you work with C Sharp,
16:09
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you don't need to worry about many stuff,
16:12
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
so passing by reference,
16:13
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
passing by value,
16:14
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
etc.
16:14
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
When you use a class and pass it through a method,
16:16
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it's gonna be by reference every time,
16:18
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
right?
16:19
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So it's easier to work with,
16:21
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you don't need to worry about anything.
16:23
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So yeah,
16:24
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I think the biggest difference,
16:26
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
as you said,
16:26
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it's obvious the memory management.
16:29
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
On C++,
16:31
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you need to release what you use.
16:34
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
There's some techniques that they call RIE,
16:36
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
right? Where you get resource acquisition,
16:40
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
initialization,
16:41
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
stuff like that.
16:42
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
It's a name.
16:43
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Basically,
16:44
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
when you use something and get yourself out of scope,
16:46
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you delete it.
16:48
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
c++ has some stuff that does that for you it's like the the unique pointer does
16:53
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
that for you and when get out the scope it's going to delete and free that memory if you're using
16:57
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
raw pointer it's not gonna do it uh it has its drawbacks
17:01
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the unique pointer can have only one uh owner stuff like that uh
17:05
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
but yeah you need to be aware of that and c sharp has some cool
17:10
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
stuff which is like the the actions so it's easier to to create some
17:14
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
uh use some
17:16
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
observer patterns so like raise an event and you can listen to it with
17:20
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
my experience with C++ of course don't have this action stuff but
17:25
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I think you can get yourself around it and create your own event hub
17:29
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
class that do that for you but yeah
17:33
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it's pretty easy to work with iterate on lists as well there is
17:37
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
a something called link people that are more close
17:42
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
to SQL language
17:44
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
uh like where this this this and that select like that c
17:48
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
shop has this link which is called and then you can do that uh
17:52
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
very easy and iterate through through lists and uh filter it by
17:56
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
wherever you want it's really cool as well gotcha yeah it
18:00
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
is that is interesting um gosh i think that i think that makes sense i
18:05
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
think
18:06
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Definitely, there's some similarity there.
18:07
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
If you're emphasizing,
18:09
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you know, managing the garbage collection,
18:11
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you're going to probably be thinking about things in the same way of C++ and
18:15
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
managing the memory challenges.
18:17
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
What about,
18:19
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
so I'd like to just kind of walk through a
18:23
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
scenario here of,
18:24
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you know, in a real,
18:25
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
in like a game like this where,
18:27
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you know, you're working in kind of the MMO style game engine.
18:33
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Dynamic UI elements like combat tags,
18:36
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
floating health bars,
18:37
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
mini map, that kind of stuff constantly being like create and destroy,
18:39
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
right? You're constantly creating these events that are kind of coming in and out of the screen.
18:44
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
How might that be designed in
18:48
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
C++?
18:49
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So if you're developing some sort of back -end system to kind of handle these elements,
18:52
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you've got to avoid memory fragmentation or massive frame rate spikes because you're
18:56
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
constantly kind of...
18:57
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
creating and destroying things.
18:58
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
How might that be handled in C++?
19:01
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Talk to me a little bit about what comes to mind,
19:03
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I guess, and how you might optimize something like that.
19:06
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I think what comes to mind could be either added to C++
19:10
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
or C Sharp.
19:12
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I think the base would be if those things are the same,
19:16
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
they are same somehow.
19:17
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So the text is flying like a damaged text that appears and destroys every
19:21
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
time. So basically,
19:23
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I would do...
19:26
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
one of the most used designs in game development which is the object pooling
19:30
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
right so you don't need to instantiate every time you just
19:34
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
instantiate once or even essentially once at the moment that
19:38
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you use or just let it instantiate it and then use it and then deactivate and
19:42
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
reactivate with the new information that you want so you don't need to destroy instantiate
19:47
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
every time just once and then keep keep reusing it and changing the
19:51
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
values if it's a damage number
19:53
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you did 300 damage and then it showed and fade now
19:58
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
it's hidden
20:00
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
And then you did more damage and now you just reuse that and show it again.
20:04
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So you need to instantiate again.
20:06
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
But if you have a really insane attack speed,
20:09
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you instantiate until you can reuse them.
20:13
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So now I have this big list of things that can be reused and then clean up
20:17
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
later.
20:17
S…
Speaker 3 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Okay,
20:18
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
we changed scenes.
20:19
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Okay, let's clean up so I don't have 3000 damage tooltips.
20:25
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Gotcha.
20:26
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
I like that idea.
20:26
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
You're using kind of stuff there rather than create,
20:29
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Speaker 3 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
destroy, create,
20:29
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
destroy.
20:30
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
You'll probably want to clean that out.
20:32
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Speaker 3 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
But yeah.
20:33
S…
Speaker 3 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Yeah.
20:34
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Okay.
20:34
S…
Speaker 3 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Okay.
20:36
S…
Speaker 3 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Gotcha.
20:36
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Let's talk about this.
20:39
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Let's assume,
20:40
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you know, again, kind of staying in this MMO kind of world because that's,
20:43
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you know, that's the build.
20:44
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
That's the game that they're building here.
20:46
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Imagine you're building an inventory.
20:49
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
or like an auction house UI that needs to display hundreds of items simultaneously.
20:53
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
You got lots of items that need to be rendered.
20:56
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Try to render all of them.
20:58
S…
Speaker 3 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Client,
20:59
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you know, you're probably going to get some spikes,
21:01
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
maybe frame rate plummets.
21:03
S…
Speaker 3 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
How might you,
21:04
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Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
what comes to mind with kind of architecting a UI system that can kind of handle
21:08
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
scalability where you're rendering hundreds,
21:10
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
if not thousands of items simultaneously or you need to or something
21:14
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
along that line?
21:16
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
What comes to mind when you're building a UI like that or kind of architecture?
21:19
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
When you said simultaneously,
21:22
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
what came to my mind?
21:25
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Speaker 3 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
That's an annoying one.
21:28
S…
Speaker 3 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
No, that's a tough one.
21:30
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
What came to my mind is like...
21:33
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Do sometimes I gonna step out a bit of the question,
21:37
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Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
but sometimes we don't need to Render everything you like have 2 ,000
21:41
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
items. Do we really need to render 2 ,000 items on the screen?
21:44
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
But maybe we have this 2 ,000 items reference,
21:47
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
but it's gonna show like 100.
21:48
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So it's pretty,
21:49
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you can read it better.
21:51
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So let's put in a state like that.
21:54
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So using this idea.
21:55
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So we have 2 ,000 items,
21:57
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
but we want to show 100.
21:58
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So this saves us a bunch of processing and drawing steps.
22:03
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
uh on the screen so uh the rest are occluded but by the
22:07
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
scribble list for example and then you can uh show it and
22:11
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
reuse again reusing and showing the the same stuff uh the same
22:15
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
objects and just changing the sprites and the names and something like that but
22:20
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
let's focus on the question that a bunch of items are on the screen at
22:24
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
the same time and we need to to use that uh focusing
22:28
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
on the c plus plus side or or custom engine side i
22:32
S…
Speaker 1 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
don't
22:33
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
NoHIO would do that,
22:34
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
but there's something on Unity that is called an Atlas
22:38
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
Group. So when you instantiate UI using that Atlas Group,
22:42
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
which is basically a big image with all of that items image possible there.
22:46
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So it would use...
22:50
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
parts of that big image to render it.
22:52
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So it's not going to render in one huge step.
22:56
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
It's just going to show on the screen instead of drawing one by one
23:00
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
by one by one by one.
23:01
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So this saves a lot as well.
23:03
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So getting this image in one single image,
23:07
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
you can draw it in one step.
23:09
S…
Speaker 2 (2026-06-03 14-01-21)
So save the GPU time as well.
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