Must Rhodes Fall Full Debate Oxford Union
Rozdziały
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0:24Rozdział 1: Good evening everyone and welcome to the Oxford Union for the first event of 2016. 102s · Speaker 1
Good evening everyone and welcome to the Oxford Union for the first event of 2016. Tonight we are asking ourselves the most topical of questions both within Oxford and without. Must. Roads. Four. We have an expert panel here tonight and you…
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2:06Rozdział 2: Thank you, Stuart. 178s · Speaker 2
Thank you, Stuart. Thank you, thank you very much. Stuart, before just getting into my opening statement I would like to dispose of a particular matter which I think is important and that is that the space that we are in and the space that …
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5:04Rozdział 3: Thank you very much Takozo. 196s · Speaker 3
Thank you very much Takozo. I now turn to Yasmin Kumi for your opening statement. Thank you. I'm going to remain seated because it's much more comfortable now that we started the trend. What I want to strongly highlight tonight is three poi…
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8:20Rozdział 4: Thank you. 150s · Speaker 2
Thank you. It's true that the statue is, for us as Rosemars Fall, emblematic of something that's a lot more problematic and perhaps more damning to the experience of black and minority students who are in this environment. But the statue it…
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10:50Rozdział 5: Thank you. 206s · Speaker 3
Thank you. Thank you very much for that. I now turn to Professor Richard Droitin for your opening statement. I admire Rhodes. I fully confess it. And when his time comes, I shall buy a piece of the rope for a keepsake. So said Mark Twain. R…
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14:17Rozdział 6: Thank you. 159s · Speaker 6
Thank you. I welcome the debate initiated by Rhodes Must Fall. but I consider the statue also as a secondary issue. For me, the central question is, how can we deal with the legacy of Rhodes in the academic sphere? Oxford has benefited enor…
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17:08Rozdział 7: Thank you, Professor, for your opening statement. 148s · Speaker 1
Thank you, Professor, for your opening statement. I now turn to Professor Nigel Biggar for your opening statement. First of all, if we insist on our heroes being pure, we aren't going to have any. Last year, the Shino Mahatma Gandhi's halo …
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19:36
Thank you very much, Professor, for your opening statement. I now turn finally to Sophia Cannon for your opening statement. There is a clear moral, economic and indeed historical distinction between the statue which is on your high street a…
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23:45Rozdział 9: you know, I've actually read about that survey and I had thought of quoting it in what I was saying in my opening statement. 166s · Speaker 4
you know, I've actually read about that survey and I had thought of quoting it in what I was saying in my opening statement. At the end of the day, majorities are always relative. And I would probably ask a counter question and say, would y…
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26:32Rozdział 10: Thank you for that presentation. 81s · Speaker 1
Thank you for that presentation. Professor Biggar. Professor Biggar. Yes, of course. The question of what was meant by the word race in Rhodes' final 1899 will is controversial. Some people like Richard Drayton think that the word race has …
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27:54Rozdział 11: Yes, please. 257s · Speaker 3
Yes, please. I hope that this debate is not going to be about whether or not Rhodes was a racist and committed all of these acts. Because if what you want to interrogate are the things that he said, you must look at the things that he did. …
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32:12Rozdział 12: you know, finding out about historical facts. 224s · Speaker 6
you know, finding out about historical facts. So then if I may, what about the idea of having a plaque that educates, which has been dismissed on this side of the panel, would that serve that purpose and keep the statue where it is? Can I j…
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36:02Rozdział 13: Hi. Good evening. 95s · Speaker 7
Hi. Good evening. Thanks for coming. I just want to preface this by saying that I come from the United States. I come from a multiracial background. And I agree in principle with the movement's ends. I agree that Oxford is a place that is r…
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37:38Rozdział 14: Thank you for your question. 127s · Speaker 1
Thank you for your question. Thank you. Ashley, would you care to respond as the question was largely directed at you? Sure. It absolutely isn't my own interpretation that statues serve this purpose that you repeat. When you look around in …
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39:46Rozdział 15: Sorry, I didn't express myself about the statue because I considered it secondary. 148s · Speaker 6
Sorry, I didn't express myself about the statue because I considered it secondary. If I were the queen or the forthcoming king, which of course I never will be, I, following Richard's comments, might well want to see the statue go. It is ex…
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42:14Rozdział 16: Thank you. 124s · Speaker 1
Thank you. And I think that this is the crux. Do we then dispense with all statues? from that age or do we use them as a medium to think with? And I'll try to illustrate that further if I get another chance. I think it's very important that…
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44:18Rozdział 17: The second question, if we could, in the air, yes, we'll go to the lady who's coming out of her seat over there. 166s · Speaker 3
The second question, if we could, in the air, yes, we'll go to the lady who's coming out of her seat over there. Good afternoon. My name is Deborah Ohm. I'm currently a student at the Business School. Thank you all for your remarks this eve…
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47:04Rozdział 18: So, Sophia, I appreciate that additional insight, but I think the most important thing that Deborah has brought out here that. 89s · Speaker 4
So, Sophia, I appreciate that additional insight, but I think the most important thing that Deborah has brought out here that... we are actually really, really, really keen on is to discuss what solutions can be to the fact that we don't ha…
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48:34
I suppose that leads on to the question though that it seems that while the issue of whether the statue should fall or not is so divisive, far more people seem to be in favour of doing exactly what we're saying, looking to diversify. the fa…
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50:07
Well I'm obviously not on the selection committee for my successor but that's not correct that there was only one applicant for the chair from an African background. I also think I'm hugely in favour of diversity and I've tried through the …
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51:41Rozdział 21: Thank you. 69s · Speaker 1
Thank you. I think in the interest of moving on, we'll look to another question. I look for the gentleman in the glasses there in the second row. Yeah. I just want to preface my remarks by adding that it's remarkable in retrograde, I think,…
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52:50Rozdział 22: No, no. Nomenclature is one of the most important things that we have. 104s · Speaker 2
No, no. Nomenclature is one of the most important things that we have. And it's the right in self -determination to name your own state where you live. So yes, I do disagree. Rhodesia should have changed its name to Zimbabwe. The issue abou…
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54:34Rozdział 23: Thank you. 61s · Speaker 1
Thank you. Thank you, Professor Bynot. Did you have something to add to that? I just wanted to add that obviously some things are changed, but not everything's changed. And it is a judgment about what has changed and what provides continuit…
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55:36Rozdział 24: Yes, I will. 105s · Speaker 2
Yes, I will. I think this is where the distinction and... It's difficult to have these kinds of debates because arguments and words are just invoked to silence the debate from happening in the first place. I think the distinction here about…
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57:22
sorry it's in terms of time do you mind if we run out to another question um so i look for another question um could please go to uh over here um uh yeah fermi Thank you. I just want to preface this by giving a quick statistic which is pers…
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58:44Rozdział 26: It doesn't matter. 197s · Speaker 6
It doesn't matter. not illustrative of the one -sided nature to the way that imperialism and the colonial project is taught throughout schools and universities in the country. Thank you. So that was my point, that all heroes are flawed. I m…
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1:02:02Rozdział 27: I was just going to say to Nigel, this is why you should stick to theology, because. 85s · Speaker 2
I was just going to say to Nigel, this is why you should stick to theology, because... Because those who are students of history, including, for example, you know, very ironically, of course, Rhodes scholar and historian, Adeke Adebajo, hav…
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1:03:28Rozdział 28: example of the crazy reasoning. 71s · Speaker 5
example of the crazy reasoning. Concentration camps belonged to the Boer War. They were borrowed from American and Spanish practice by Kitchener. They had nothing to do with Rhodes. It was Rhodes who initiated the Jameson... which led to th…
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1:04:43Rozdział 29: Thanks. So all heroes are flawed. 224s · Speaker 8
Thanks. So all heroes are flawed. The thing is some people aren't heroes, right? So I'd make the radical suggestion that Cecil Rose might not be a hero. My question is over here. I'd just love to hear more about your positive vision of what…
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1:08:28
you very much we could uh get another question please um so we'll try and get okay there's someone's literally waving at me so yeah the but yes i will i'm partly who puts their hands up as well thank you very much for your comments I want t…
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1:09:51
Repeatedly in the public prints, ad hominem attacks have been made on the leaders of Rhodes Must Fall, saying, well, you are Rhodes scholars, how could you possibly be criticizing? Let's be quite clear about this. I think that when I was be…
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1:11:03Rozdział 32: Rhodes did. 53s · Speaker 6
Rhodes did. And then you want to tell me that the problem has gone away? Of course the problem hasn't gone away. But the point that I want to make is that those of us from Southern Africa who take the money off the Rhodes Scholarship do so …
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1:12:13
And of course, I think it's a way of obfuscating the issue. Rhodes scholars have a proud history of actually interrogating Rhodes' legacy, whether or not they are from Southern Africa. And I think this idea that money can somehow buy our si…
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1:16:02Rozdział 34: The whole issue. 89s · Speaker 7
The whole issue. Again. I know about the issue of the 18 female black professors. I've personally met so many of them. And one of the things that I said was the problem isn't the white statue on the outside, it's the white professors on the…
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1:17:32Rozdział 35: I think we're looking for two final questions from the audience in the interest of time. 70s · Speaker 1
I think we're looking for two final questions from the audience in the interest of time. So if we could please look right at the back in the scarf. All right. Thank you so much for all your comments. I want to... shift the conversation back…
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1:18:42Rozdział 36: Oxford has existed since. 70s · Speaker 7
Oxford has existed since. Right? So Oxford has fundamental problems that other universities don't. And I can't speak for universities in the UK or speak for all universities all over the world, but it has put itself on a pedestal like roads…
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1:19:53Rozdział 37: Well, thank you for your comment. 70s · Speaker 1
Well, thank you for your comment. I think perhaps it's more beneficial to move on to a different question, but thank you very much for that. If we could please look to just over there with the membership card in the air. I just wanted to as…
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1:21:03Rozdział 38: when we say. 68s · Speaker 3
when we say... Well if you go after one statue don't we have to go after all of them is that not what sort of like saying well We can't catch all the criminals We can't go after all the war criminals and therefore let's not go after the ver…
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1:22:15Rozdział 39: Good evening. 64s · Speaker 8
Good evening. I just wanted to return to the point that the Rhodes statue is a secondary issue. This is kind of directed at the Rhodes must fall panellists. But I would argue that whether the statue remains or falls, Rhodes is always going …
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1:23:19Rozdział 40: it's interesting, you know, because. 70s · Speaker 1
it's interesting, you know, because... The Oxford Africa Society has partnered with Roads Must Fall. I've said that earlier. And we've partnered on the broad agenda. And the broad agenda was not the removal of a single statue. It was not. T…
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1:24:29Rozdział 41: Yes, I think if we've achieved anything tonight, then it should be, again, having outlined that. 83s · Speaker 2
Yes, I think if we've achieved anything tonight, then it should be, again, having outlined that... Not only that RMF has a broad project that goes beyond the statue, but also that statues do go to the very way in which we imagine ourselves.…
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1:25:52Rozdział 42: Thank you very much. 116s · Speaker 3
Thank you very much. Yasmin. So I think one point that we've discussed a lot tonight and that was taken up in one of the last comments is the question, how can we be consistent about the removal of statues? And since this is the main topic …
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1:27:49Rozdział 43: personally not been persuaded by the idea that Rhodes' statue should stay up there for the purposes of retaining a history. 83s · Speaker 2
personally not been persuaded by the idea that Rhodes' statue should stay up there for the purposes of retaining a history. I'm worried more after hearing the other side that there is an attachment, an insistence on being privileged in the …
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1:29:13Rozdział 44: Thank you very much for that. 115s · Speaker 3
Thank you very much for that. Professor Duration, your closing statement please. Standing there in the high is an idol to money and earthly power, a monument to a deformed kind of national identity, a symbol of Britain the bully, Britain th…
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1:31:08Rozdział 45: It is very heartening for me. 123s · Speaker 6
It is very heartening for me. that the University of Oxford matters to our students and to our students from such a wide range of backgrounds as it matters to me because I think it is a special place. I support many of the ideas that have b…
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1:33:11Rozdział 46: Thank you for that, Professor Beinart. 113s · Speaker 3
Thank you for that, Professor Beinart. I now turn to Professor Bigar for your closing statement. Certainly the most important thing about this debate is the present, not the past. So if indeed there are non -Western texts, for example, that…
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1:35:09
There has been a great deal of pride in this room and it should be reflected in the youth bringing forward this idea that the structure of our society is not just limited to its architecture but also the institutions which have supported it…
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1:36:14
But equally, we must know our history to know our place. Because if we whitewash our history and remove all vestiges of inequity, superiority, we are not going to understand how we've made those mistakes. And moreover, we are not going to m…
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1:37:19Rozdział 49: Thank you very much. 28s · Speaker 3
Thank you very much. Thank you very much to everyone on the panel and indeed everyone in the audience. As I said, we will now be voting with our feet. So please be careful with which door you walk out of in the gallery. You will be directed…