Hunting the Suicide Salesman

Aug 01, 2026 14:39 · 55:31 · English · Whisper Turbo · 8 المتكلمون
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'm Brian Reed.
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
When I created S -Town,
0:02
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I looked at how secrets,
0:03
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
lies,
0:04
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and the stories we tell shape a small rural town.
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Now on my podcast,
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Question Everything,
0:09
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'm going bigger.
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Hi, this message is for Senator Lindsey Graham.
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'm hoping...
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I head to Washington to take on a law that gives tech companies sweeping immunity.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's how these companies have gotten rich.
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Join me as I go after big tech on Question Everything
0:25
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
from Placement Theory and KCRW,
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
out Thursdays,
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
wherever you get your podcasts.
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
This is a CBC Podcast.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
The following episode contains difficult subject matter.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Listener discretion is advised.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'll just start when we're in the bar,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
yeah?
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Sure, yeah.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Okay, so we are,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'm in this burger bar in Sydney.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Sorry,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'm not.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'm in this burger bar in Brisbane.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'm in this burger.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's hard.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's super hard.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
think it's a difficult story to tell and perhaps also to follow because it's
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
got so many layers in it.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
That's Håkon.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Håkon Hoidl.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
He's an investigative journalist and he's based in Oslo.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
You got the story about how me and Einar found the server of this
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
site.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
You got the story of the police operation,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and you have the story about the people behind the site itself on the darknet.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Håkon writes for a paper
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
called Verdensgang.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's famous in Norway.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Famous enough that everyone there just calls it by its initials,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
VG.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And also you have the story about the
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
arrest itself.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So it's got several layers to it.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Hawken originally broke this story.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Talking about it usually isn't an issue.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
But for some reason,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
this time around,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
it's kind of messing with him.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Sorry,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and it's also a difficult story because of the subject.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It is a tough subject,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
for sure.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
But I don't think that's really the issue.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Hawken's used to covering nasty subjects.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
What's messing with him,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I think, is that he's self -conscious.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
He's used to telling this story from the outside.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
He's not used to being a character in it.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And what he's telling me now...
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
is the story behind that story,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
the biggest story of his career.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So I'm in this burger bar
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
in Brisbane.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's lunchtime,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and it's really,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
really crowded.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And I'm there with two other guys.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Two
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
other guys he's only just met.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Hawken's trying to get a read on them,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
trying to size them up.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
John,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
he seemed to be like the younger one.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
He had blonde hair,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
perfect teeth,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
firm handshake.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and looked very,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
you know, rather lean and fit.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And Paul,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
the other guy, he also,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I mean,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
he looked like he had been doing handiwork a lot and
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
looked like a robust guy.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I mean,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
they both looked like they'd been working out.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So the kind of guys you probably don't want to upset,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
which is a problem,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
because Hawkins flown all the way from Oslo to
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
do just that,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
to confront them.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
about what they've been up to.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
But I was a bit surprised that they wanted to take me out to
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
have lunch because I told them that,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
you know,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I got some information that I need to talk to you about.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So I was hoping that we could meet at an office because this wasn't
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
some information that I wanted to share with everyone.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's the kind of information that can destroy reputations,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
families,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
lives.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'm quite nervous because we're in this open bar with a lot of other people,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
noisy.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
We have to talk quite loud to be able to hear each other.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And I'm about to tell them that I know that they're the ones who are running the
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
largest child abuse website on the darknet.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
This
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
is the story of the men who operate in the most disturbing corners of the internet.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's the story of the police who track down those men who
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
hunt undercover in the dark.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And it's the story of the reporters who try to shed light on this hidden underworld.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
My name is Damon Fairless.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And this is hunting warhead.
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S… Speaker 6 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I've
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
just arrived in Oslo.
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S… Speaker 6 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Hi,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Håkon.
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's Damon.
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
How are you?
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Yeah,
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
we're in the lobby.
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Fantastic.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Great.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's the first time
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'm meeting Håkon.
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S… Speaker 6 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Finally.
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S… Speaker 6 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Nice to meet you.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Håkon is slim and tall.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
He's about 6 '6",
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and he's in his late 40s.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
But there's still something boyish about him.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Maybe it's his enthusiasm.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Maybe it's his unruly blonde hair.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Finally you're here.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Yeah, yeah.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'm here to find out more about the Australians.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
The guys running the largest child pornography site on the dark web.
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S… Speaker 6 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Okay,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
you'll have to sign in.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
You're visiting VG.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And you're from CDC.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'm also here because even though this is a crime that spans
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
the globe, it's also a Canadian story.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
You first.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Okay.
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S… Speaker 6 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So much
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
security.
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S… Speaker 6 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Okay,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
so this is my floor.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
VG's offices are four floors of clean lines,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
glass windows,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and open concept workstations.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's part modern newsroom,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
part IKEA catalog.
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Among
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S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
other things,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Hawken investigates the scariest places on the internet,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
including the very worst kind of online abuse,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
child pornography.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Hawken and I share some common ground and
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
some common beliefs.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I've spent the past few years researching and writing about extremely violent
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
men, including dangerous sexual offenders.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
My interest lies in understanding the deep motivations of
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
the people who commit serious acts of violence.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Essentially,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
what interests me is forensic psychology.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's natural to want to turn away from uncomfortable stories.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I get that.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And I respect it.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
The problem is,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
you can't change what you don't understand.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And you can't possibly understand the stories you avoid.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So,
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
like Hulken,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
the more I've come to understand just how prevalent and how destructive
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
child pornography is,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
the more compelled I am to cover it.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
As a journalist,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
but also as a father.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
That said,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
you don't just wake up one morning and dive headfirst into the worst places on the internet.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
For Hulken,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
it was more of a step -by -step descent.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
One that began about six years ago.
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
In 2013,
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
a colleague of mine got a tip about a website for
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
revenge porn,
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and that it would be possible to identify some
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
of these guys who had published these images.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Back in 2012,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
hackers across the world had started breaking into people's iCloud accounts.
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S… Speaker 5 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Celebrities are being hacked.
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S… Speaker 5 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Hunger Games star Jennifer Lawrence,
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S… Speaker 5 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
model Kate Upton have both been exposed.
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S… Speaker 5 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Personal photos for the world to see.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
iCloud was notoriously easy to crack at the time.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Guys would break into women's accounts and post their pictures on
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
so -called revenge porn sites.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And let's be clear,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
revenge porn isn't pornography,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
nor is it revenge.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's online abuse by anonymous trolls.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Some of these women were ex -girlfriends,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
some were famous,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
but most of them were total strangers.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
A lot of the pictures these guys stole were intimate and
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
personal.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So Hulken and one of his colleagues,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Julia Ingebrigtsen,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
published an exposé on one of these revenge porn sites.
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It was one of the first articles about revenge porn,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I think.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
The story was critical of the Norwegian police,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and of the government too,
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for not cracking down on revenge porn,
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despite the disproportionately high numbers of Norwegian users on these sites.
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And that's when I got an email a couple of weeks after
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
that from a man.
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
He wrote an email.
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'm really annoyed.
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I've been trying to get in touch with you guys at VG for a long time now.
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I've been trying to email all these different guys and no one is answering me.
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And aren't you interested in what I'm having to offer?
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And this guy who had this tip,
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
this hacker,
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
he was Einar.
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S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Okay.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So your first contact with Einar was through this annoyed email.
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S… Speaker 7 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Annoying email, yeah.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
My name is Einar Otto Stangvik Meet Einar
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
The way I recall this is that I was annoyed by
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
something they wrote
10:00
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
that I felt was incorrect.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So I sent this annoyed email to both Håkon
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and Julia, pointing out that this is wrong,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
this is wrong, this is wrong,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
this is garbage,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
whatever.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And I think that testifies to my general frustration at the time as well.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Einar is a
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
big part of the story.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
He's the hacker Håkon was talking about.
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Although hacker isn't a term Einar is crazy about.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
When I see hacker in the media,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
that usually means just that someone who breaks something down,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
breaks in somewhere.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And that isn't the brand that I would want to have on my persona,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
because that's not what I'm doing.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'm just, I try to come up with solutions.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I try to build things,
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I try to fix things,
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
not tear them down as such.
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So I just feel it doesn't describe me very well.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's just imprecise.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
But in a lot of
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
ways, Einar is the typical hacker.
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Hyper -focused,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
logical,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
super methodical.
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But he's not all stereotypes.
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He's also stylish,
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fit,
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emotionally sophisticated,
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and highly self -aware.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Back
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
when Einar sent that email to Halken,
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S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
he was working a job he couldn't stand.
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I was getting depressed
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
with my whole...
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S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
career choice what am i doing here what is this why am i like
11:27
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
selling made -up solutions to to non -existent problems
11:32
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and so forth i eventually figured that i have to do something meaningful
11:36
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
with with whatever knowledge i'd amassed up until then
11:40
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And so I sat down one day and read some articles and saw that,
11:44
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
well, iCloud hacks,
11:46
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
that seems to be the thing now.
11:48
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So that sort of left a lingering feeling that,
11:51
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
well, hey, maybe this is something that I can do something with.
11:53
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Einar decides to take on some of these guys,
11:56
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
to hack the hackers.
11:58
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
But like right on Christmas 2012,
12:03
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I started building a system that would monitor these different sort of
12:07
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
shady forums for newly posted images.
12:10
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Einar's system downloads the metadata from pictures that were being put up on the revenge
12:14
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
porn sites.
12:15
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So not the pictures themselves,
12:17
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
but the information about those pictures.
12:19
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
File names,
12:21
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
when the shot was taken,
12:22
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
GPS coordinates.
12:24
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Through,
12:26
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'd say,
12:27
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
a week or so,
12:28
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I'd amassed millions upon millions of these metadata collections.
12:32
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
That's the haystack.
12:34
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
But Einar's looking for a needle.
12:36
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
He builds another program.
12:38
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
This one...
12:39
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
...to automatically detect which GPS locations it found was
12:43
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
in Norway.
12:44
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Most of the Norwegian photos aren't hacked.
12:46
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
In fact,
12:47
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
most of them are completely tame.
12:48
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
But then Ina's system flags something.
12:51
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
A posting with,
12:53
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I believe,
12:54
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
like 15 pictures from what seemed like different girls.
12:58
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Not like totally explicit pictures,
13:00
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
but obviously private.
13:01
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
The same guy posting a response to another person like further
13:05
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
down the thread said...
13:07
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Who says that the girls know that I have those photos?
13:10
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
iCloud,
13:11
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
dot, dot, dot.
13:11
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So it felt like I'd hit
13:16
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
exactly the sort of posting that I was looking for.
13:19
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Einar creates a few user accounts,
13:22
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
different personas,
13:23
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and he uses these personas to manipulate the site administrators.
13:26
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Eventually,
13:28
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
he gets one of them to reveal an IP address,
13:30
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
which Einar uses to identify the man who originally posted those
13:34
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
15 stolen photos.
13:38
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Einar was running a full -fledged undercover operation,
13:41
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
entirely on his own.
13:43
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And it's around this time that he reads Håkon's article on revenge porn
13:47
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and fires off his disgruntled email,
13:49
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
pointing out the inaccuracies in the story.
13:52
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Håkon was friendly in his reply,
13:55
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and they fixed the article,
13:58
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I think.
13:59
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And he invited me over for coffee,
14:02
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and I sat down with him and presented the whole story.
14:10
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
The whole story is pretty incredible.
14:12
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
The guy Einar identified was a 24 -year -old man named Tor Johannes
14:16
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Helleland.
14:17
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Helleland was a local politician in Dramon.
14:20
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
That's a city in southern Norway.
14:21
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Also,
14:22
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
both of Helleland's parents are high -ranking members of Norway's National
14:27
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Conservative Party.
14:28
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And a number of the women whose photos he had hacked were
14:32
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
members of the youth wing of the party.
14:33
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So it was a political bombshell.
14:36
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I wrote two
14:40
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
reports.
14:41
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
40, 50,
14:42
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
60, I don't know,
14:43
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
pages long,
14:44
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
detailing all of my communication with the different people,
14:46
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
the administrator,
14:47
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
the forums,
14:48
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and detailing my operation,
14:51
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
how I found what I found and what I found,
14:53
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
like everything.
14:55
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Einer had shared these reports with two of the women whose photos had been stolen.
15:00
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and he encouraged them to go to the police.
15:01
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
They did,
15:02
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
but the cops dismissed both cases.
15:04
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
But I tried reaching out to the police at that point,
15:07
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
and they basically said that,
15:11
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
well, hey,
15:12
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
we're not going to investigate this,
15:14
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
no matter what,
15:15
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
so whatever,
15:16
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
to go somewhere else.
15:18
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
The police weren't interested in pursuing the case.
15:21
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
But Håkon?
15:22
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Håkon was super interested.
15:24
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Well,
15:26
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I mean, I...
15:27
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I was really happy that he contacted me because obviously you saw that it was
15:31
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
a crazy story.
15:32
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I remember telling the story and
15:36
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I felt that I managed to tell an exciting and interesting story.
15:41
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And you seem to think that it was really interesting as well.
15:44
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
But I'm not sure if you were willing to give me your name.
15:47
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I mean, I don't think you gave me your name in the first emails.
15:50
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I was,
15:51
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I suppose,
15:52
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
somewhat afraid of being both investigated by police
15:56
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
for coming even close to that sort of thing.
15:59
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I mean,
15:59
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I had no idea.
16:00
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Einar wanted to remain anonymous.
16:02
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
But for the story to be credible,
16:04
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
how can he need Einar to go on the record?
16:06
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It was a big,
16:08
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
big leap.
16:09
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Yeah, and then we got you on the front page.
16:11
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Yeah.
16:11
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Super hacker.
16:13
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
A couple
16:22
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
days later,
16:23
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
the politician was forced by his political party to come forward,
16:26
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
so he published a press release where he apologized and so forth.
16:31
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And the state attorney also made it clear that the police in
16:36
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Drammen should investigate.
16:37
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And they did.
16:38
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And they eventually found that 12 or more than 30 girls that he'd
16:42
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
either hacked by guessing passwords or getting to
16:46
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
log on to their accounts on his computer and then logging their passwords.
16:50
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So he was notorious.
16:51
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
He was like,
16:52
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
he hacked left and right.
16:55
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Helleland had hacked the accounts of 30 young women,
16:59
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
none of whom were underage.
17:01
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And he ended up serving one month in jail.
17:03
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
BG's recently contacted Helelen through text and email
17:07
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
informing him that his case is mentioned in this podcast.
17:10
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
He hasn't replied.
17:12
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Helelen's
17:19
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
political career was over.
17:20
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
But Håkon and Einar's working relationship?
17:22
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
That was just getting started.
17:26
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I
17:42
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
mean, so you've probably heard of the sites.
17:44
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Yeah,
17:45
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
totally.
17:46
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So it isn't much of a surprise to anyone that there's a lot of stuff.
17:50
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Here's stating the obvious.
17:52
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
The web can lead you down some rabbit holes.
17:54
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So we just back up to the main menu.
17:58
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So yeah,
17:59
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
if we look at the different boards,
18:00
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
you've got anime,
18:01
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
cute,
18:02
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
cute male,
18:04
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
flash,
18:05
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
weapons,
18:06
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
auto,
18:07
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
science and math,
18:08
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
LGBT,
18:09
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
pony.
18:10
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And those rabbit holes have rabbit holes.
18:12
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
You had clicked on random?
18:14
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Yeah.
18:14
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So this board is pretty random.
18:17
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
There are a lot of different things.
18:19
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And those rabbit holes have rabbit holes too,
18:22
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
which can lead to some pretty terrifying places.
18:25
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And there are different threads for...
18:29
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I don't know.
18:29
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
This is likely someone falling onto train tracks or something.
18:33
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Right.
18:35
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Einar's showing me around 4chan.
18:37
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's one of the sites he was monitoring when he was working on the revenge porn story.
18:41
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
You've probably heard of it.
18:42
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's the internet equivalent of public washroom graffiti.
18:46
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Revenge porn aside,
18:49
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
you'll find all kinds of garbage spewed across its forums.
18:51
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
These threads often spin into,
18:54
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
like,
18:55
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
the posting of pictures of people who wouldn't want to be on this site.
18:58
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So that's the thing.
18:59
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
People here...
19:01
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
often tread on a thin line towards what's illegal
19:05
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
or not.
19:06
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
She looks quite young.
19:07
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
That is certainly on some line somewhere.
19:11
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I mentioned earlier that when Einar was infiltrating
19:15
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
the revenge porn sites,
19:16
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
he used one of his online personas to get close to the forum's administrator.
19:20
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
Well,
19:21
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
that guy ended up recruiting Einar,
19:23
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
or Einar's persona,
19:24
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
because he needed help deleting the deluge of illegal images that was constantly
19:28
S… Speaker 4 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
being posted.
19:30
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And he started talking about the problems he was facing as his
19:34
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
revenge porn administrator and his
19:38
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
daily business,
19:39
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
the people who was giving him a hard time.
19:42
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And some of these people were people who advertised for
19:46
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
different file hosting services where their selling point
19:50
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
was that,
19:51
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
well, on our services,
19:52
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
you can find these pictures.
19:54
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
And there would be girls where you'd understand
19:58
S… Speaker 3 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
immediately that...
20:00
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
That girl isn't 18.
20:00
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
She isn't 20.
20:02
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
She's more like 11 or something.
20:04
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So
20:12
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
I started talking to Hakon about what I saw
20:16
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
as a problem on the clear net and how available the child
20:21
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
abuse material apparently was on the clear net.
20:22
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
It's worth understanding a few terms.
20:25
S… Speaker 1 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
The clear net accounts
20:29
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
for about 10 % of what's on the internet.
20:31
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
The deep web is the other 90%.
20:33
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
All the stuff you can't access through web browsers.
20:36
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
So password -protected pages,
20:38
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
encrypted sites,
20:39
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
that sort of thing.
20:40
S… Speaker 2 (Hunting the Suicide Salesman)
There's also the dark web.

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