Nuova registrazione 19

0:01

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That is national law.

0:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

If I would

0:07

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

ask you what is then European Social Law,

0:10

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

what would be your answer?

0:11

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

What would you think?

0:13

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

What do you expect?

0:14

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Where is Europe active?

0:18

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It

0:27

S… Speaker 2 (Nuova registrazione 19)

works with employment rights and workers rights.

0:30

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Workers rights,

0:32

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

I'm going with if you have a cross -border situation.

0:34

S… Speaker 2 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Yes.

0:35

S… Speaker 3 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Okay.

0:36

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

right yes labor rights yeah their social

0:40

S… Speaker 2 (Nuova registrazione 19)

life like the relationships with it like not only

0:45

S… Speaker 2 (Nuova registrazione 19)

with the like consumer rights everything that

0:49

S… Speaker 2 (Nuova registrazione 19)

has to do with their daily life also yeah yeah

0:58

S… Speaker 4 (Nuova registrazione 19)

integration interesting

1:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

point also yeah i'm taking measures against social dumping

1:07

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That's very clear.

1:08

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Actual,

1:09

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

very actual point,

1:10

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

yes, social dumping,

1:12

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the influence of foreign workers here,

1:15

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

or vice versa.

1:16

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Any other?

1:17

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Do we have a European social security system?

1:20

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Social

1:30

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

security system.

1:31

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Nevertheless,

1:32

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Europe has a huge impact on this domain.

1:36

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

There is an attorney general

1:42

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

at the point of justice who wanted his one -way expression.

1:46

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

European law is like in common time.

1:49

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It floods over,

1:52

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it goes back to water,

1:55

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

and always it will leave a little bit of influence of European

1:59

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

law on your national system.

2:01

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And this is completely correct.

2:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Now the social dimension of the European Union is very weird.

2:08

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And basically we are

2:12

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

now 70 years.

2:17

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

European Union,

2:18

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

if you want to say it,

2:19

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

yeah, 57.

2:22

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So the first thing we have to do is give

2:27

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you a sketch about the background.

2:29

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Where do we stand with Europe?

2:31

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Because in a certain way all still stands in national labor

2:35

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

law and national social security law.

2:38

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So it's national law.

2:39

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

But nevertheless,

2:40

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

what we're going to discuss here is the impact of the European dimension.

2:49

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Let's call it the social phase of Europe.

2:51

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

What is it?

2:53

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And I've made some journal ideas

2:57

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

about it.

2:58

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

In a certain way,

3:00

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

what some authors also call,

3:04

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it is embedded liberalism.

3:07

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It's a little bit weird.

3:09

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The whole story about the European Union is basically the question,

3:13

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you have a national welfare state,

3:15

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

everything is social,

3:18

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it's national,

3:18

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

but you have an economic integration.

3:21

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

How do we cope with each other?

3:23

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Because economic integration is,

3:26

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

by definition,

3:27

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

cross -border,

3:29

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

and you have a national welfare state.

3:31

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

How does that fit?

3:33

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It fits a little bit difficult in that.

3:37

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So on the one hand,

3:38

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you have national welfare states,

3:40

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you want to protect your rights,

3:43

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

your social rights,

3:44

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

but it's also liberalism,

3:46

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

because we are cross -border international action.

3:51

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That's one of the issues about it.

3:54

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And the whole point of debate is the

3:58

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

conflict between the social objectives and the economic

4:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

objectives.

4:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The national

4:08

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

welfare state,

4:09

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

because that was basically the initial idea at

4:13

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the start of the European Union community at that moment was,

4:17

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

welfare state is a national component.

4:21

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

We don't deal with it.

4:23

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

There was never an idea at the beginning of the European Communities

4:28

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

or Union to have a kind of European social standard.

4:32

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That's not the idea.

4:33

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The start of the European Union

4:38

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

was with an old report,

4:39

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the SPARC report,

4:42

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

SPARC, former Belgian Minister of Foreign Affairs,

4:44

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

who wrote in the 50s,

4:46

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

after the second World War and all that,

4:48

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

a kind of report what Europe should do.

4:51

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

that was his idea and the spark report was basically yeah

4:56

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the whole philosophy behind the european

5:00

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And he was extremely influenced by

5:04

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

a Nobel Prize winner for economics from Sweden,

5:08

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Olin Report,

5:09

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

which was introduced basically in the Spark Report.

5:13

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And Olin Report wrote basically a report

5:17

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

on the question about should Europe do something

5:21

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

in the domain of social matters.

5:25

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And his answer was,

5:26

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

no, we do not need social minimum standards.

5:30

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The social standards will be the result

5:34

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

of an economic integration.

5:37

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The idea was,

5:40

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

in a certain way,

5:41

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

quite simple.

5:43

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

He said,

5:45

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

do we need,

5:46

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

like, minimum standards?

5:48

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

No.

5:49

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

There's no need to,

5:51

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

because if there is economic integration,

5:54

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the economy will get better.

5:57

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The welfare state will improve,

5:59

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

so there is no need minimum standards.

6:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That was basically the idea that Olin also had

6:07

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

a spark to go with,

6:08

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

and why the European Union never discussed that?

6:11

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

They said,

6:12

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

well, the progress of the welfare will result of

6:16

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the progress in the economy.

6:18

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

We don't need special minimum rules

6:22

S… Speaker 2 (Nuova registrazione 19)

to protect.

6:23

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That was the idea.

6:28

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That's also the reason why we said,

6:29

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

okay, we won't deal with the national welfare state,

6:32

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

that's it.

6:33

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That was the beginning.

6:34

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And should we adapt social

6:38

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

standards?

6:39

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

No.

6:40

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

As I told you,

6:42

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

European Union never dealt with all these matters.

6:46

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

There's only basically one exception to

6:50

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

a certain extent.

6:52

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

There's one provision that was in the

6:56

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

initial Rome Treaty.

6:59

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

which was a little bit very social.

7:01

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Any idea?

7:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Think about it.

7:06

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It's still a debate every day.

7:08

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Not really

7:12

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

that.

7:13

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Migration came a little bit later.

7:15

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That's the answer.

7:16

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

But look to men -women,

7:18

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

equal treatment.

7:19

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The only really social provision you had in

7:23

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the Rome Treaty was equal treatment between men and women.

7:26

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

But this was

7:30

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

not seen as immediately direct rights.

7:33

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Why was it installed?

7:36

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Because two powers at that moment,

7:39

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the French and the German,

7:41

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

had a completely different legislation.

7:43

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The French protect these women much more in

7:47

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

their social legislation and more in between than men.

7:51

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And the French were a little bit afraid,

7:54

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

yeah, in an economic integration,

7:56

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

this might have an impact.

7:57

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Because there is an unequal treatment to

8:01

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

a certain extent.

8:02

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

However,

8:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it was just like a...

8:09

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

a program written.

8:10

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It's only in the 70s that

8:14

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

due to this famous case law,

8:16

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

if you follow the European law,

8:17

S… Speaker 4 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you're always...

8:18

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Sabina,

8:23

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

at that moment,

8:23

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

went to the Court of Justice and was fired because she

8:28

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

was too old.

8:28

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So she was ugly.

8:31

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Or good when saying that.

8:35

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That was the argument of the Belt and Belt.

8:37

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It was the rule.

8:39

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Stewardesses had to go.

8:41

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It's hard to imagine things.

8:44

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

But in that time,

8:45

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

stewardesses had to go.

8:47

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

to go,

8:47

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

basically before 50,

8:49

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

because clients wouldn't like to be served by older women.

8:53

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That was,

8:55

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it's not me,

8:57

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the good order,

8:58

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

completely weird.

9:00

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And of course you won't,

9:01

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

but, I mean,

9:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

that was the equal treatment,

9:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it was not there.

9:04

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The only point was,

9:06

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

before that,

9:07

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it was the court of justice who said,

9:09

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

in a certain way,

9:09

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

in a friend, okay,

9:11

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

this article has a direct effect.

9:14

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That's why the friend became so famous.

9:17

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It means you can go to the court and defend your

9:21

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

rights. Before that,

9:22

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

nobody thought that this article had any direct effect

9:26

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

on rights for the person.

9:28

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Good.

9:30

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

This is the only exception we basically have.

9:33

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The whole story about Europe

9:37

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

is regulatory competition.

9:39

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

I will come back to that.

9:41

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Market regulation.

9:42

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

I mean

9:46

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

by that...

9:53

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

There is a market regulation,

9:54

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

if you start with the internal market you create a market regulation and

9:58

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the result of this market

10:00

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

regulation was basically that the national welfare state

10:04

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

came under pressure.

10:05

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The perfect idea of embedded

10:09

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

liberalism,

10:10

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

let's have a national welfare state,

10:12

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

that would not be touched up by the internal market,

10:15

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

became impossible.

10:16

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

From the moment workers cross borders,

10:21

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

there is a conflict between legislations.

10:24

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The one is more expensive.

10:30

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

gives more rights than the other,

10:32

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

what you call the social dumping.

10:34

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It's basically,

10:36

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

I will come back to that later on,

10:38

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

social dumping is presumably nothing more than the logical result

10:43

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

of the whole structure.

10:45

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

From the moment you have the market regulation,

10:48

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you compete between each other.

10:50

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That was the point of free movement and market integration.

10:54

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

If you have free movement,

10:57

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

what does that imply?

10:58

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

You move from state A to state B.

11:02

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Why would you move?

11:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Why would you go?

11:06

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Companies and citizens might be different,

11:10

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

legal and natural persons.

11:13

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

But why would you move to a certain extent?

11:16

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Because you think,

11:18

S… Speaker 3 (Nuova registrazione 19)

yeah,

11:18

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

why would you move?

11:19

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Why would you now say,

11:22

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

I want to go to work in Spain,

11:25

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

in Italy, in Germany,

11:26

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

but it doesn't matter.

11:27

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Why would you do that?

11:28

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Anyway.

11:35

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

okay so you go for labor conditions to a certain extent

11:39

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you want to have a better income that's what you have you think it's more attractive

11:43

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it's yeah okay um that's one of the reasons

11:47

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it's not the most important reasons why people are better

11:51

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you read the statistics and all that but

11:56

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

most of time it's a very important element so it means that you look the difference in

12:01

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

regulation why is it

12:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

a higher income because perhaps tax rules are different social

12:07

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

security rules are different whatever might be

12:11

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

in different ways that you can look at it and that's exactly what you see

12:15

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

also here today market regulation people cross

12:20

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the borders the moment you do that there is a result

12:24

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

of that you compete

12:27

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

You compete as a legislation.

12:29

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

You compete as a country,

12:30

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

so you compete as a legislation.

12:32

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Why would I move from Belgium to Germany?

12:35

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Because you basically said,

12:38

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

well,

12:39

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it might be much more interesting.

12:40

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

I moved to Germany because I earned more.

12:43

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So you look to the rules that are compared.

12:45

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And rules are different.

12:48

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

There is no uniformity.

12:51

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The only way,

12:54

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

basically,

12:55

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

that you can treat...

12:57

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

person's fully equally European level,

13:00

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

is to have one group.

13:02

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Otherwise,

13:04

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you always will have a conflict.

13:06

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

You go from Belgium,

13:08

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you go to Germany.

13:09

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So you're gonna compete.

13:11

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And of course,

13:14

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

if you want to be attractive as a country,

13:18

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

meaning I would like to attract more people coming

13:22

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

to me, to my country,

13:24

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

yeah, what do you do?

13:24

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

You play your moves.

13:25

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Deregulate.

13:29

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Or you make it more attractive,

13:31

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

meaning less taxes,

13:33

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

for example.

13:34

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That's why you come.

13:35

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That's why one of the reasons you're told.

13:39

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So that is basically what is happening in

13:43

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

a market regulation and a free movement.

13:46

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The free movement implies that people go,

13:50

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

and free movement is,

13:51

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you could express that in,

13:53

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

how could I say,

13:53

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

people vote with their feet.

13:56

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

You go from one state to another,

14:01

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So you move to another state basically with the idea because

14:05

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you think it's more interesting for you.

14:08

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The legislation is different.

14:10

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Member states will compete with each other,

14:14

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

depending on the economic situation.

14:16

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

If you want to have more workers,

14:18

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you try to get it cheaper,

14:19

S… Speaker 3 (Nuova registrazione 19)

more attractive.

14:21

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

For natural persons to come,

14:23

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

but also for companies,

14:25

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

legal persons.

14:27

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

To settle down,

14:28

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

why would the company move their C from A to B?

14:32

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Because they have to pay less taxes and whatever.

14:35

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It's easier.

14:36

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

There are less strict regulations.

14:39

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So that is the regulatory competition that basically happens.

14:43

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And I will come back

14:47

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

to that a little bit later on.

14:48

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That's the whole issue in European social law.

14:52

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The question is basically,

14:54

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

to which legislation are you as a person

14:58

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

subject?

15:00

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Which legislation?

15:02

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

If you move.

15:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And there are not so many options.

15:06

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Now I'm going too quick.

15:07

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

If you go from A to B,

15:10

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

there are not many options.

15:11

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Either you remain under A,

15:12

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you fall under B,

15:14

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

or you have a combination.

15:16

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It's not enough.

15:16

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

No other results.

15:18

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

That's it.

15:19

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Regulative competition.

15:20

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Free movement.

15:22

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

States are in competition with each other because it's

15:26

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

an internal market.

15:27

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

You want to make it attractive to move.

15:30

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

You want to attract more workers.

15:32

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

You want to attract more business.

15:34

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So what is the way to attract it?

15:36

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

To play with your rules.

15:38

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

To regulate it differently than the others.

15:42

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And that's exactly the point.

15:44

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And Social Europe,

15:47

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

as such I also once called it,

15:50

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

is basically the servant of market integration.

15:53

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

What we will see is that the whole evolution,

15:58

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

of the social dimension of Europe is basically the

16:02

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

result of the market integration.

16:04

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It's not,

16:08

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

let me be frank,

16:09

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

and today people will say it's a little different,

16:12

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

and yes,

16:13

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

to a certain extent,

16:14

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

but the 70 years of social Europe,

16:18

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

all the norms that were enacted

16:23

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

are basically the result of market

16:28

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

integration issues.

16:29

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Not because people said,

16:31

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

oh, we have to protect the worker.

16:33

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

I will give you an example of

16:37

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

one of the most famous directives in the 70s.

16:41

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

It's long before you were born.

16:43

S… Speaker 5 (Nuova registrazione 19)

You're lucky.

16:45

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So having that before,

16:49

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

we had in the 70s,

16:50

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

perhaps the directive that you might know

16:55

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

as collective dismissal.

16:56

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The fact is,

16:58

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

if a company closes,

17:00

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Close to the branch,

17:01

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

all workers need to be protected.

17:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Collective dismissal is one well -known concept,

17:07

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

national labor law,

17:08

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

and of course, in also the European context.

17:11

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

This directive,

17:12

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

we are in the 70s.

17:15

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

In the 70s,

17:16

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you might think,

17:17

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

before your time,

17:18

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

most of us have,

17:20

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you had the economic oil price,

17:23

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

something very familiar these days,

17:25

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

but basically it's the same result.

17:27

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Now what happens?

17:28

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Why was this directive enacted?

17:31

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And I will just explain you why,

17:33

S… Speaker 3 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the background,

17:35

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

just to explain you that you understand why we have

17:39

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

a directive that sounds extremely social,

17:43

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

protecting the rights of dismissed workers.

17:45

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

But the collective

17:50

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

dismissal directive is the result of a conflict between

17:55

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

a concern,

17:55

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it was a huge concern,

17:58

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you might still know them if you go to the supermarket,

18:02

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

actual concern.

18:04

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

different things,

18:05

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

flowers, other pasta and all these issues.

18:08

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So you go to Axel Concern.

18:10

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Now Axel Concern was a very well working

18:15

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

company but

18:19

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

nevertheless it was in economic crisis and they had to decide,

18:23

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

they had to make an economic decision and they decided,

18:27

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

look, we have to close one of our branches.

18:30

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

There were auctions.

18:31

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

They had a good,

18:33

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

very good working one in Belgium.

18:36

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

They had in Germany one,

18:37

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it was concerning in the Netherlands,

18:39

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

and they were reflecting,

18:40

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

we're going to close one of these branches.

18:42

S… Speaker 5 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Completely.

18:43

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

We have to cut costs and all that.

18:46

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

From an economic perspective,

18:49

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

better said from predictivity,

18:51

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the top branch was Belgium.

18:54

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

They were Belgium.

18:59

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

They were very productive.

19:00

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Economically,

19:01

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

they said from Axel,

19:03

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

look, if you compare Germany...

19:05

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The Netherlands and Belgium.

19:07

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The Belgium is the most productive,

19:09

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

so you might say,

19:10

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

don't close that way.

19:11

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

But then they discovered at a certain

19:15

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

moment, yeah,

19:17

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

but if we close

19:21

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the Dutch or the German,

19:24

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

we have problems.

19:26

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

What are the problems?

19:28

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

The social problem.

19:28

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

In Belgium,

19:30

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it's quite easy to fire someone.

19:33

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

You have to pay something,

19:34

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

but it's not a big issue.

19:37

S… Speaker 3 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Well,

19:39

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

maybe you have to pay,

19:40

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

but that's it.

19:41

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

In the Netherlands and in Germany,

19:42

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

they have basically a system that you can only fire somebody like

19:46

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

an employee if you pass first to a judge.

19:50

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

There needs to be a kind of permission to a judge.

19:53

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So the concern basically says,

19:55

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

oh yeah, what should we do now?

20:00

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Because, indeed,

20:01

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

the Netherlands and Germany is less productive,

20:04

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

but it's more

20:08

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

complicated to close due to this social law.

20:11

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And they said the balance sheet might be productive,

20:14

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

but it's easy.

20:15

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Okay,

20:16

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you just have to pay too many and it's over.

20:19

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

So they decided to close the balance sheet.

20:21

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

As a result,

20:24

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

basically, not of economic productivity,

20:26

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

but of the influence of social legislation.

20:30

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And that's also one of the reasons why at that moment people said,

20:35

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

yeah, but this is weird.

20:36

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

If you're gonna allow social

20:41

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

arguments to the main argument in

20:46

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

an economic decision,

20:47

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it's a little bit,

20:48

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

it doesn't fit in the logic,

20:51

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

they said.

20:51

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

And afterwards,

20:53

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

so the commission,

20:54

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

in a certain way,

20:55

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

and initiatives were taken to say,

20:57

S… Speaker 6 (Nuova registrazione 19)

perhaps,

20:58

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

well,

20:58

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you know, we need at least the protection.

21:02

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Regardless of how your national legislation arranged,

21:05

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

you need to find a protection,

21:07

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

collective dismissal.

21:09

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

There is a kind of mechanism installed

21:13

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

that makes it more complicated to shut down purely a

21:17

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

full enterprise company.

21:20

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

I give you just this example just to say,

21:23

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

well,

21:24

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

we have a new directive.

21:26

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

For what?

21:26

S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)

Because this was

Nuova registrazione 19

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