Nuova registrazione 19

Sep 22, 2026 20:47 · 1:11:32 · English · Whisper Turbo · 8 发言者
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0:01
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That is national law.
0:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
If I would
0:07
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
ask you what is then European Social Law,
0:10
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
what would be your answer?
0:11
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
What would you think?
0:13
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
What do you expect?
0:14
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Where is Europe active?
0:18
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It
0:27
S… Speaker 2 (Nuova registrazione 19)
works with employment rights and workers rights.
0:30
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Workers rights,
0:32
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
I'm going with if you have a cross -border situation.
0:34
S… Speaker 2 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Yes.
0:35
S… Speaker 3 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Okay.
0:36
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
right yes labor rights yeah their social
0:40
S… Speaker 2 (Nuova registrazione 19)
life like the relationships with it like not only
0:45
S… Speaker 2 (Nuova registrazione 19)
with the like consumer rights everything that
0:49
S… Speaker 2 (Nuova registrazione 19)
has to do with their daily life also yeah yeah
0:58
S… Speaker 4 (Nuova registrazione 19)
integration interesting
1:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
point also yeah i'm taking measures against social dumping
1:07
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That's very clear.
1:08
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Actual,
1:09
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
very actual point,
1:10
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
yes, social dumping,
1:12
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the influence of foreign workers here,
1:15
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
or vice versa.
1:16
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Any other?
1:17
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Do we have a European social security system?
1:20
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Social
1:30
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
security system.
1:31
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Nevertheless,
1:32
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Europe has a huge impact on this domain.
1:36
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
There is an attorney general
1:42
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
at the point of justice who wanted his one -way expression.
1:46
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
European law is like in common time.
1:49
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It floods over,
1:52
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it goes back to water,
1:55
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
and always it will leave a little bit of influence of European
1:59
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
law on your national system.
2:01
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And this is completely correct.
2:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Now the social dimension of the European Union is very weird.
2:08
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And basically we are
2:12
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
now 70 years.
2:17
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
European Union,
2:18
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
if you want to say it,
2:19
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
yeah, 57.
2:22
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So the first thing we have to do is give
2:27
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you a sketch about the background.
2:29
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Where do we stand with Europe?
2:31
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Because in a certain way all still stands in national labor
2:35
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
law and national social security law.
2:38
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So it's national law.
2:39
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
But nevertheless,
2:40
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
what we're going to discuss here is the impact of the European dimension.
2:49
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Let's call it the social phase of Europe.
2:51
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
What is it?
2:53
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And I've made some journal ideas
2:57
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
about it.
2:58
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
In a certain way,
3:00
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
what some authors also call,
3:04
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it is embedded liberalism.
3:07
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It's a little bit weird.
3:09
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The whole story about the European Union is basically the question,
3:13
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you have a national welfare state,
3:15
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
everything is social,
3:18
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it's national,
3:18
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
but you have an economic integration.
3:21
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
How do we cope with each other?
3:23
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Because economic integration is,
3:26
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
by definition,
3:27
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
cross -border,
3:29
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
and you have a national welfare state.
3:31
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
How does that fit?
3:33
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It fits a little bit difficult in that.
3:37
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So on the one hand,
3:38
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you have national welfare states,
3:40
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you want to protect your rights,
3:43
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
your social rights,
3:44
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
but it's also liberalism,
3:46
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
because we are cross -border international action.
3:51
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That's one of the issues about it.
3:54
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And the whole point of debate is the
3:58
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
conflict between the social objectives and the economic
4:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
objectives.
4:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The national
4:08
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
welfare state,
4:09
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
because that was basically the initial idea at
4:13
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the start of the European Union community at that moment was,
4:17
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
welfare state is a national component.
4:21
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
We don't deal with it.
4:23
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
There was never an idea at the beginning of the European Communities
4:28
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
or Union to have a kind of European social standard.
4:32
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That's not the idea.
4:33
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The start of the European Union
4:38
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
was with an old report,
4:39
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the SPARC report,
4:42
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
SPARC, former Belgian Minister of Foreign Affairs,
4:44
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
who wrote in the 50s,
4:46
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
after the second World War and all that,
4:48
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
a kind of report what Europe should do.
4:51
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
that was his idea and the spark report was basically yeah
4:56
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the whole philosophy behind the european
5:00
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And he was extremely influenced by
5:04
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
a Nobel Prize winner for economics from Sweden,
5:08
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Olin Report,
5:09
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
which was introduced basically in the Spark Report.
5:13
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And Olin Report wrote basically a report
5:17
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
on the question about should Europe do something
5:21
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
in the domain of social matters.
5:25
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And his answer was,
5:26
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
no, we do not need social minimum standards.
5:30
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The social standards will be the result
5:34
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
of an economic integration.
5:37
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The idea was,
5:40
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
in a certain way,
5:41
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
quite simple.
5:43
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
He said,
5:45
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
do we need,
5:46
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
like, minimum standards?
5:48
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
No.
5:49
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
There's no need to,
5:51
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
because if there is economic integration,
5:54
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the economy will get better.
5:57
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The welfare state will improve,
5:59
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
so there is no need minimum standards.
6:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That was basically the idea that Olin also had
6:07
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
a spark to go with,
6:08
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
and why the European Union never discussed that?
6:11
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
They said,
6:12
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
well, the progress of the welfare will result of
6:16
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the progress in the economy.
6:18
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
We don't need special minimum rules
6:22
S… Speaker 2 (Nuova registrazione 19)
to protect.
6:23
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That was the idea.
6:28
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That's also the reason why we said,
6:29
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
okay, we won't deal with the national welfare state,
6:32
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
that's it.
6:33
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That was the beginning.
6:34
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And should we adapt social
6:38
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
standards?
6:39
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
No.
6:40
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
As I told you,
6:42
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
European Union never dealt with all these matters.
6:46
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
There's only basically one exception to
6:50
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
a certain extent.
6:52
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
There's one provision that was in the
6:56
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
initial Rome Treaty.
6:59
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
which was a little bit very social.
7:01
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Any idea?
7:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Think about it.
7:06
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It's still a debate every day.
7:08
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Not really
7:12
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
that.
7:13
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Migration came a little bit later.
7:15
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That's the answer.
7:16
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
But look to men -women,
7:18
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
equal treatment.
7:19
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The only really social provision you had in
7:23
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the Rome Treaty was equal treatment between men and women.
7:26
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
But this was
7:30
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
not seen as immediately direct rights.
7:33
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Why was it installed?
7:36
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Because two powers at that moment,
7:39
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the French and the German,
7:41
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
had a completely different legislation.
7:43
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The French protect these women much more in
7:47
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
their social legislation and more in between than men.
7:51
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And the French were a little bit afraid,
7:54
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
yeah, in an economic integration,
7:56
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
this might have an impact.
7:57
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Because there is an unequal treatment to
8:01
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
a certain extent.
8:02
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
However,
8:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it was just like a...
8:09
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
a program written.
8:10
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It's only in the 70s that
8:14
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
due to this famous case law,
8:16
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
if you follow the European law,
8:17
S… Speaker 4 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you're always...
8:18
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Sabina,
8:23
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
at that moment,
8:23
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
went to the Court of Justice and was fired because she
8:28
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
was too old.
8:28
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So she was ugly.
8:31
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Or good when saying that.
8:35
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That was the argument of the Belt and Belt.
8:37
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It was the rule.
8:39
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Stewardesses had to go.
8:41
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It's hard to imagine things.
8:44
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
But in that time,
8:45
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
stewardesses had to go.
8:47
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
to go,
8:47
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
basically before 50,
8:49
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
because clients wouldn't like to be served by older women.
8:53
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That was,
8:55
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it's not me,
8:57
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the good order,
8:58
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
completely weird.
9:00
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And of course you won't,
9:01
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
but, I mean,
9:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
that was the equal treatment,
9:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it was not there.
9:04
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The only point was,
9:06
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
before that,
9:07
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it was the court of justice who said,
9:09
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
in a certain way,
9:09
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
in a friend, okay,
9:11
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
this article has a direct effect.
9:14
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That's why the friend became so famous.
9:17
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It means you can go to the court and defend your
9:21
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
rights. Before that,
9:22
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
nobody thought that this article had any direct effect
9:26
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
on rights for the person.
9:28
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Good.
9:30
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
This is the only exception we basically have.
9:33
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The whole story about Europe
9:37
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
is regulatory competition.
9:39
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
I will come back to that.
9:41
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Market regulation.
9:42
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
I mean
9:46
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
by that...
9:53
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
There is a market regulation,
9:54
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
if you start with the internal market you create a market regulation and
9:58
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the result of this market
10:00
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
regulation was basically that the national welfare state
10:04
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
came under pressure.
10:05
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The perfect idea of embedded
10:09
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
liberalism,
10:10
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
let's have a national welfare state,
10:12
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
that would not be touched up by the internal market,
10:15
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
became impossible.
10:16
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
From the moment workers cross borders,
10:21
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
there is a conflict between legislations.
10:24
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The one is more expensive.
10:30
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
gives more rights than the other,
10:32
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
what you call the social dumping.
10:34
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It's basically,
10:36
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
I will come back to that later on,
10:38
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
social dumping is presumably nothing more than the logical result
10:43
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
of the whole structure.
10:45
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
From the moment you have the market regulation,
10:48
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you compete between each other.
10:50
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That was the point of free movement and market integration.
10:54
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
If you have free movement,
10:57
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
what does that imply?
10:58
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
You move from state A to state B.
11:02
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Why would you move?
11:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Why would you go?
11:06
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Companies and citizens might be different,
11:10
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
legal and natural persons.
11:13
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
But why would you move to a certain extent?
11:16
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Because you think,
11:18
S… Speaker 3 (Nuova registrazione 19)
yeah,
11:18
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
why would you move?
11:19
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Why would you now say,
11:22
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
I want to go to work in Spain,
11:25
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
in Italy, in Germany,
11:26
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
but it doesn't matter.
11:27
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Why would you do that?
11:28
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Anyway.
11:35
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
okay so you go for labor conditions to a certain extent
11:39
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you want to have a better income that's what you have you think it's more attractive
11:43
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it's yeah okay um that's one of the reasons
11:47
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it's not the most important reasons why people are better
11:51
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you read the statistics and all that but
11:56
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
most of time it's a very important element so it means that you look the difference in
12:01
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
regulation why is it
12:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
a higher income because perhaps tax rules are different social
12:07
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
security rules are different whatever might be
12:11
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
in different ways that you can look at it and that's exactly what you see
12:15
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
also here today market regulation people cross
12:20
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the borders the moment you do that there is a result
12:24
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
of that you compete
12:27
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
You compete as a legislation.
12:29
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
You compete as a country,
12:30
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
so you compete as a legislation.
12:32
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Why would I move from Belgium to Germany?
12:35
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Because you basically said,
12:38
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
well,
12:39
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it might be much more interesting.
12:40
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
I moved to Germany because I earned more.
12:43
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So you look to the rules that are compared.
12:45
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And rules are different.
12:48
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
There is no uniformity.
12:51
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The only way,
12:54
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
basically,
12:55
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
that you can treat...
12:57
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
person's fully equally European level,
13:00
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
is to have one group.
13:02
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Otherwise,
13:04
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you always will have a conflict.
13:06
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
You go from Belgium,
13:08
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you go to Germany.
13:09
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So you're gonna compete.
13:11
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And of course,
13:14
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
if you want to be attractive as a country,
13:18
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
meaning I would like to attract more people coming
13:22
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
to me, to my country,
13:24
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
yeah, what do you do?
13:24
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
You play your moves.
13:25
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Deregulate.
13:29
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Or you make it more attractive,
13:31
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
meaning less taxes,
13:33
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
for example.
13:34
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That's why you come.
13:35
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That's why one of the reasons you're told.
13:39
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So that is basically what is happening in
13:43
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
a market regulation and a free movement.
13:46
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The free movement implies that people go,
13:50
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
and free movement is,
13:51
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you could express that in,
13:53
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
how could I say,
13:53
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
people vote with their feet.
13:56
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
You go from one state to another,
14:01
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So you move to another state basically with the idea because
14:05
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you think it's more interesting for you.
14:08
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The legislation is different.
14:10
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Member states will compete with each other,
14:14
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
depending on the economic situation.
14:16
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
If you want to have more workers,
14:18
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you try to get it cheaper,
14:19
S… Speaker 3 (Nuova registrazione 19)
more attractive.
14:21
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
For natural persons to come,
14:23
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
but also for companies,
14:25
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
legal persons.
14:27
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
To settle down,
14:28
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
why would the company move their C from A to B?
14:32
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Because they have to pay less taxes and whatever.
14:35
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It's easier.
14:36
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
There are less strict regulations.
14:39
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So that is the regulatory competition that basically happens.
14:43
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And I will come back
14:47
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
to that a little bit later on.
14:48
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That's the whole issue in European social law.
14:52
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The question is basically,
14:54
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
to which legislation are you as a person
14:58
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
subject?
15:00
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Which legislation?
15:02
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
If you move.
15:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And there are not so many options.
15:06
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Now I'm going too quick.
15:07
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
If you go from A to B,
15:10
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
there are not many options.
15:11
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Either you remain under A,
15:12
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you fall under B,
15:14
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
or you have a combination.
15:16
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It's not enough.
15:16
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
No other results.
15:18
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
That's it.
15:19
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Regulative competition.
15:20
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Free movement.
15:22
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
States are in competition with each other because it's
15:26
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
an internal market.
15:27
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
You want to make it attractive to move.
15:30
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
You want to attract more workers.
15:32
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
You want to attract more business.
15:34
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So what is the way to attract it?
15:36
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
To play with your rules.
15:38
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
To regulate it differently than the others.
15:42
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And that's exactly the point.
15:44
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And Social Europe,
15:47
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
as such I also once called it,
15:50
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
is basically the servant of market integration.
15:53
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
What we will see is that the whole evolution,
15:58
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
of the social dimension of Europe is basically the
16:02
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
result of the market integration.
16:04
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It's not,
16:08
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
let me be frank,
16:09
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
and today people will say it's a little different,
16:12
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
and yes,
16:13
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
to a certain extent,
16:14
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
but the 70 years of social Europe,
16:18
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
all the norms that were enacted
16:23
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
are basically the result of market
16:28
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
integration issues.
16:29
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Not because people said,
16:31
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
oh, we have to protect the worker.
16:33
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
I will give you an example of
16:37
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
one of the most famous directives in the 70s.
16:41
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
It's long before you were born.
16:43
S… Speaker 5 (Nuova registrazione 19)
You're lucky.
16:45
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So having that before,
16:49
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
we had in the 70s,
16:50
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
perhaps the directive that you might know
16:55
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
as collective dismissal.
16:56
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The fact is,
16:58
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
if a company closes,
17:00
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Close to the branch,
17:01
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
all workers need to be protected.
17:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Collective dismissal is one well -known concept,
17:07
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
national labor law,
17:08
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
and of course, in also the European context.
17:11
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
This directive,
17:12
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
we are in the 70s.
17:15
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
In the 70s,
17:16
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you might think,
17:17
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
before your time,
17:18
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
most of us have,
17:20
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you had the economic oil price,
17:23
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
something very familiar these days,
17:25
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
but basically it's the same result.
17:27
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Now what happens?
17:28
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Why was this directive enacted?
17:31
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And I will just explain you why,
17:33
S… Speaker 3 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the background,
17:35
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
just to explain you that you understand why we have
17:39
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
a directive that sounds extremely social,
17:43
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
protecting the rights of dismissed workers.
17:45
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
But the collective
17:50
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
dismissal directive is the result of a conflict between
17:55
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
a concern,
17:55
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it was a huge concern,
17:58
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you might still know them if you go to the supermarket,
18:02
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
actual concern.
18:04
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
different things,
18:05
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
flowers, other pasta and all these issues.
18:08
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So you go to Axel Concern.
18:10
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Now Axel Concern was a very well working
18:15
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
company but
18:19
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
nevertheless it was in economic crisis and they had to decide,
18:23
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
they had to make an economic decision and they decided,
18:27
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
look, we have to close one of our branches.
18:30
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
There were auctions.
18:31
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
They had a good,
18:33
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
very good working one in Belgium.
18:36
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
They had in Germany one,
18:37
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it was concerning in the Netherlands,
18:39
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
and they were reflecting,
18:40
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
we're going to close one of these branches.
18:42
S… Speaker 5 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Completely.
18:43
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
We have to cut costs and all that.
18:46
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
From an economic perspective,
18:49
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
better said from predictivity,
18:51
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the top branch was Belgium.
18:54
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
They were Belgium.
18:59
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
They were very productive.
19:00
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Economically,
19:01
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
they said from Axel,
19:03
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
look, if you compare Germany...
19:05
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The Netherlands and Belgium.
19:07
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The Belgium is the most productive,
19:09
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
so you might say,
19:10
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
don't close that way.
19:11
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
But then they discovered at a certain
19:15
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
moment, yeah,
19:17
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
but if we close
19:21
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the Dutch or the German,
19:24
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
we have problems.
19:26
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
What are the problems?
19:28
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
The social problem.
19:28
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
In Belgium,
19:30
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it's quite easy to fire someone.
19:33
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
You have to pay something,
19:34
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
but it's not a big issue.
19:37
S… Speaker 3 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Well,
19:39
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
maybe you have to pay,
19:40
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
but that's it.
19:41
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
In the Netherlands and in Germany,
19:42
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
they have basically a system that you can only fire somebody like
19:46
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
an employee if you pass first to a judge.
19:50
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
There needs to be a kind of permission to a judge.
19:53
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So the concern basically says,
19:55
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
oh yeah, what should we do now?
20:00
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Because, indeed,
20:01
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
the Netherlands and Germany is less productive,
20:04
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
but it's more
20:08
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
complicated to close due to this social law.
20:11
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And they said the balance sheet might be productive,
20:14
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
but it's easy.
20:15
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Okay,
20:16
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you just have to pay too many and it's over.
20:19
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
So they decided to close the balance sheet.
20:21
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
As a result,
20:24
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
basically, not of economic productivity,
20:26
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
but of the influence of social legislation.
20:30
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And that's also one of the reasons why at that moment people said,
20:35
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
yeah, but this is weird.
20:36
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
If you're gonna allow social
20:41
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
arguments to the main argument in
20:46
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
an economic decision,
20:47
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it's a little bit,
20:48
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
it doesn't fit in the logic,
20:51
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
they said.
20:51
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
And afterwards,
20:53
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
so the commission,
20:54
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
in a certain way,
20:55
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
and initiatives were taken to say,
20:57
S… Speaker 6 (Nuova registrazione 19)
perhaps,
20:58
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
well,
20:58
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you know, we need at least the protection.
21:02
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Regardless of how your national legislation arranged,
21:05
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
you need to find a protection,
21:07
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
collective dismissal.
21:09
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
There is a kind of mechanism installed
21:13
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
that makes it more complicated to shut down purely a
21:17
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
full enterprise company.
21:20
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
I give you just this example just to say,
21:23
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
well,
21:24
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
we have a new directive.
21:26
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
For what?
21:26
S… Speaker 1 (Nuova registrazione 19)
Because this was

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