260617_1608

Jun 17, 2026 17:23 · 35:26 · English · Whisper Turbo · 3 speakers
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Uitsluitend tonen
0:00
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
So that was part of your own journey,
0:02
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
wasn't it?
0:03
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Was that part of your friendship when you first met in 67?
0:06
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Did you discuss those things,
0:07
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
or was that a little bit later?
0:08
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I can't
0:13
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
really remember that.
0:14
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Because I read that he went to Scotland
0:18
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
for a time to the Sammy Ling,
0:20
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
which is still there today,
0:22
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
but I read that,
0:23
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I think it was around 67 or 68,
0:25
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
he travelled to Scotland to the monastery there.
0:29
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
No, he never did.
0:31
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
No?
0:31
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Okay.
0:32
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
No.
0:32
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
No.
0:33
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
But he was interested in Tibetan Buddhism.
0:35
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Okay.
0:36
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Not to the extent I was.
0:39
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
He kind of liked the idea of being
0:43
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
reincarnated and stuff like that.
0:45
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And we both met the same lama,
0:47
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Chimi Rinpoche,
0:49
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
his name was.
0:50
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Okay.
0:50
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And he recently passed away in the past couple of months.
0:54
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Right.
0:55
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
But he came to my studio once.
0:59
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
He eventually got a job at the British Museum because they
1:03
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
had all these scrolls in Tibetan,
1:05
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
which no one in the British Museum could interpret.
1:08
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
They couldn't translate it.
1:10
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And he stepped in and he said,
1:12
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
wow,
1:13
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I have heard of these books,
1:15
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
but I have never seen them in Tibet.
1:19
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
That's what the British used to do.
1:22
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
They used to take these things away and put them in a museum,
1:25
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
lock them up forever,
1:26
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
which was ridiculous.
1:27
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
So you would have known Woody back then as well.
1:31
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Of course, you worked together on The Man Who Sold the World,
1:33
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
but you're not involved in the Ziggy Stardust period,
1:37
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Tony, but were you around David's social world at that time?
1:40
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Because he writes about...
1:42
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
London and Soho,
1:43
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
a similar way to Lou Reed wrote about New York.
1:46
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Were you part of that kind of social world at the time where,
1:49
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I guess,
1:50
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
London was a completely different place to what it is now?
1:53
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Well,
1:54
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
sure.
1:55
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And I had a studio in Soho at the time,
1:59
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
and we did see each other socially,
2:02
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
David and I,
2:03
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
but we didn't,
2:04
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
you know, when he was working with Ken Scott,
2:06
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
of course, we weren't working together.
2:09
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And then we eventually got together towards the end of his life.
2:13
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
So he's always been a figure in my life and a friend.
2:16
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And in New York,
2:18
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
he lived very close,
2:19
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
so we often had lunch,
2:21
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
meetings like that.
2:23
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Yeah.
2:23
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I mean,
2:24
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
that world you mentioned,
2:26
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Soho, where was your studio,
2:27
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Tony?
2:27
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Because I guess Soho was essential to David's writing,
2:31
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
some of the characters and people he met,
2:33
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
like Freddie Barretti,
2:35
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
who would design his costumes and so on.
2:38
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Yeah, well,
2:39
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
it was 59 Dean Street.
2:41
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Okay, right,
2:42
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
yeah, wow.
2:43
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
So,
2:45
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I mean, what was your interpretation or what was your experience like of
2:49
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
London at that point?
2:50
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I mean, if you could give us a kind of snapshot of what it was like back in the late 60s.
2:55
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Well, I knew I had to go to London after
2:59
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I saw A Hard Day's Night by the Beatles.
3:01
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And although they're from Liverpool,
3:04
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
most of the film is in London,
3:07
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
you know, taken in London and their concerts and all that.
3:10
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And I said,
3:11
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I'm going to go to London and I'm going to meet the Beatles.
3:15
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I don't know how,
3:16
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
but I will do that.
3:17
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And of course,
3:18
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I was a young guy from Brooklyn in those days and I had no money.
3:22
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And the conditions of how I got there were really almost like
3:27
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
a fairy tale because I was signed to a publishing company
3:31
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
as a songwriter,
3:32
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
not a very successful one at all.
3:34
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
But I went to the water cooler in
3:38
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
that company just to get a drink of water from a paper cup.
3:42
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And there was this curly haired British guy
3:46
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
also wanting a cup of water.
3:49
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And his name was Denny Cordell.
3:51
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Okay.
3:52
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And that afternoon,
3:54
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
he had a recording session booked at A
3:58
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
&R Studios,
3:59
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
which belonged to Phil Ramone.
4:01
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
He had it booked to record a backing track
4:05
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
for Georgie Fame.
4:06
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
He said,
4:08
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
why don't you come along and help me out?
4:11
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And I said to him,
4:12
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
can I see the charts?
4:14
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
The charts meaning is a musician's jargon for the arrangements.
4:18
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And he said,
4:19
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
there are no arrangements.
4:21
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I said,
4:22
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
well, how do you do it then?
4:23
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
How do you do it in London?
4:24
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
He said,
4:25
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
well,
4:26
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
we just booked the studio for a day.
4:28
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
We booked the musicians all day.
4:30
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And then we roll a couple of spliffs and we have a smoke.
4:35
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I said,
4:36
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Denny,
4:37
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
you will be crucified if you do that in New York.
4:39
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
It's a union -based musician's union.
4:42
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
They're very,
4:43
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
very strict.
4:44
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And the studios do not allow the use of drugs in
4:48
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
the studio.
4:49
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Everything was against it.
4:52
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I've read a lot that Trident was quite
4:56
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
a cutting -edge studio at the time,
4:58
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Tony, compared to...
5:00
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
maybe even Abbey Road.
5:01
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
Is that true?
5:02
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
How did you find working in Trident in the late 1960s?
5:05
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I knew the owners of Trident.
5:09
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
They were two brothers who liked to build studios.
5:13
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And they were called the Sheffield Brothers.
5:16
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
One was Barry Sheffield,
5:18
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
and I forgot the name of the other brother.
5:19
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
But they built Trident,
5:21
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
and it was very close to my own studio.
5:27
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Mine came first in that area,
5:28
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
making a specifically rock and roll studio.
5:32
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
So I went to Trident and I fell in love
5:36
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
with the atmosphere.
5:38
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Whilst it was in use,
5:42
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
the Beatles were always looking for a new place to record.
5:45
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And I remember knocking on the door of the restroom.
5:49
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I had to have a slash.
5:53
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I heard a voice behind it with a Liverpool accent said,
5:56
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
wait a minute,
5:57
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I'll be out very soon.
5:58
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And the door opened and it was George Harrison.
6:01
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Wow.
6:02
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And I nearly fainted.
6:05
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Yeah, I bet.
6:06
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Fantastic.
6:08
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
And that studio you mentioned in Dean Street,
6:11
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
did David ever record there,
6:12
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Tony? He did.
6:15
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
We did...
6:16
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
scary monsters serotypically,
6:20
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
secretly,
6:21
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
because at the time,
6:24
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
the British musicians were
6:28
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
being taxed very,
6:29
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
very heavily.
6:30
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
So they would go and record in France or Germany,
6:34
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
and this way they would avoid paying a certain amount of...
6:39
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
They wouldn't pay tax on sales.
6:44
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
overseas just the uk and and of course david sold a lot of records overseas
6:48
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
yeah so so it was a kind of a haven to be in that studio everyone
6:52
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
would keep quiet about who was in there no no information was given out
6:57
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
however david was seen walking in and out of these studios by fans
7:01
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
and they would they would question him what are you doing here what
7:05
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
are you making an album and he goes oh no no i'm just seeing a friend or something
7:10
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
like that
7:10
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Wow.
7:11
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I mean,
7:11
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
I really didn't know he recorded Scary Monsters in Dean Street
7:16
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
in London.
7:16
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
That's amazing.
7:17
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
Yeah, that's really interesting.
7:18
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Yeah,
7:19
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
a lot of it.
7:20
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
You know, not the whole thing.
7:21
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I think we did the backing tracks probably,
7:23
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I don't know,
7:25
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
maybe in Germany or France.
7:27
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I don't know.
7:28
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
But we'd certainly finished the album in Dean Street.
7:31
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
What about when he met,
7:33
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
do you remember when he met Lindsay Kemp and was influenced by the more
7:37
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
theatrical side of things,
7:38
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
the makeup, the costume and so on?
7:40
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
Did you encounter Lindsay Kemp much and what did you think of the change?
7:44
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
Because I know you were friends with Hermione and I read a quote from her where she said
7:48
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
she wasn't very enamoured by the Ziggy character.
7:51
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
I just wondered what your thoughts on it were at that time,
7:54
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
Tony, and the whole Lindsay Kemp influence.
7:56
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Well,
7:58
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I got it.
7:59
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Lindsay was...
8:01
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
a very flirtatious gay man.
8:04
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And it was a little difficult to be around him because I was kind of good
8:08
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
looking in those days.
8:09
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
So I had to be
8:14
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
very careful around Lindsay.
8:21
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Why did I get off track there for a second?
8:23
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
So yeah, we were just saying about Lindsay,
8:24
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
he was quite a flamboyant,
8:26
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
openly gay man,
8:27
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
and the influence,
8:29
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
I guess, around David,
8:30
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
it must have been quite a shift at the time from when you were working with
8:34
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
him to this Ziggy character.
8:37
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Right,
8:38
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
okay.
8:38
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Well, David was a fan of Marcel Marceau,
8:41
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
and he saw mime as a means
8:45
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
of communication,
8:46
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
because he actually...
8:48
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
wasn't regarded as a recording artist yet,
8:51
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
and he did whatever he could to get on a stage and do something
8:55
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
in front of people.
8:56
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And the funniest thing was it was working out,
8:59
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
and he couldn't utter a word because it was mime,
9:02
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
or he couldn't sing a song either.
9:04
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
But meeting Hermione was really good for him.
9:07
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
She gave him a lot of confidence.
9:10
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
to step away from his then manager,
9:13
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
a guy called Ken Pitt,
9:15
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
who is quoted as saying that I am
9:19
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
a red -pinko communist from New York.
9:24
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Right, gosh.
9:25
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
So that's how jealous people got around David,
9:28
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
if he met someone new that he liked.
9:30
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
Yeah, so Hermione was quite an important influence as well.
9:33
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
It's maybe a little bit overlooked,
9:34
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
but of course David himself acknowledged it very subtly with the
9:39
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
Song of Norway.
9:39
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
We can take from that what we will,
9:42
S… Speaker 3 (260617_1608)
but it seemed a very nice and subtle reference later on from David.
9:47
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
yes of course he loved her and she she was really a good good person
9:51
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
very good person for him she she kept him on the straight and narrow away from
9:55
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
drugs and they they had a really great relationship and it was really nice
10:00
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
be around them.
10:00
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Sure.
10:01
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
One thing I read,
10:02
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Tony, I don't know if you remember this,
10:04
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
but I read that,
10:05
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I mean, I know David made Poirot and Turquoise with Lindsay in Scotland,
10:09
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
in Edinburgh.
10:10
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I read that Lindsay had a flat here during the Fringe and that David
10:14
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
would sometimes come here with Angie.
10:16
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Is that,
10:17
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
do you remember anything about that,
10:19
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
him being involved with Lindsay and the Fringe Festival?
10:21
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I'm not sure I was there.
10:25
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Right.
10:26
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I guess you're asking me to remember something that's over 50 years ago.
10:31
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Of course, yeah,
10:31
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
no, I understand.
10:33
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I mean,
10:33
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
let's move a little bit forward,
10:35
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
because when you come back to producing David,
10:38
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
it's at the end of his kind of first,
10:40
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
that period in London,
10:42
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
and he goes on to Diamond Dogs,
10:44
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
which I think is kind of one of the first really experimental records before
10:48
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
we get to Berlin.
10:49
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
But you come back on board around that time,
10:52
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Tony.
10:52
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
What did you make about what David was trying to do?
10:55
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Because, again, he's found success as Ziggy.
10:57
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
He seems to be very quickly moving on from that into something that
11:02
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
becomes very influential in later years on the goth movement and so on.
11:06
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Yes,
11:07
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
well, he worked on to do Diamond Dogs originally.
11:11
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
He started out as a self -production,
11:14
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
and he had a young engineer that was helping him.
11:18
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And if my memory serves me well,
11:20
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I think that engineer died prematurely,
11:24
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
of course.
11:25
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And David phoned me up and he said,
11:28
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I've started this album.
11:30
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I don't have an engineer anymore,
11:31
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
blah, blah, blah.
11:32
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
He told me the whole story.
11:33
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And then he said,
11:34
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
would you be interested in helping me finish it?
11:37
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And I hadn't heard from him for several years.
11:40
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And that was really an amazing phone call.
11:43
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And I said, of course,
11:44
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I'll help you.
11:44
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
So I helped finish that album.
11:47
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And it was really,
11:49
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
really cool,
11:50
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
cool sounding album.
11:51
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Very different from anything else he had done.
11:53
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And he was definitely at the edge,
11:56
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
the beginning of prog rock.
11:57
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Yeah.
11:58
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I mean,
11:59
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
he probably made...
12:00
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
one of the last great sort of glam rock singles as well for obviously
12:05
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Rebel Rebel.
12:06
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
What did you think when you heard that cut,
12:08
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Tony?
12:08
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Did you feel like,
12:09
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
you know,
12:10
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
this was kind of like the end of a chapter or just another great single?
12:14
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I just felt it was another great single
12:18
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
and I liked it very much.
12:20
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
It's one of the songs that we do in our show.
12:23
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I think we do it as the encore.
12:25
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Great.
12:25
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
So I really love that song.
12:27
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
It's a terrific song.
12:28
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Yeah.
12:29
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Yeah. I mean,
12:30
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
again, he shifts from,
12:31
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I mean, you produce David live,
12:33
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
which I think gives us a real flavour of where David was at in between
12:37
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
stages.
12:37
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Because when he does go to America,
12:40
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Tony, and you produce the next record,
12:42
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Young Americans,
12:42
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
it's a completely different sound.
12:45
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I know fans here at the time really struggled to get their heads around it.
12:49
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Obviously,
12:49
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
in hindsight,
12:50
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
now he made another great record.
12:52
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
But how was that for you at the time?
12:53
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Because he kind of uses people like Luther Vandross,
12:57
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
almost in a similar way to Mick Rotherham.
13:01
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Well,
13:02
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
yeah, he was enamored with a television program called
13:06
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Soul Train,
13:07
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
which in New York was the,
13:09
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
in America,
13:10
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
was the first all -black show for
13:14
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
teenagers,
13:15
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
for black teenagers.
13:16
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And traditionally,
13:18
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
they never had anyone other than a black person perform.
13:24
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
David said,
13:25
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
if I can get on Soul Train,
13:27
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
it would be like the best thing that could ever happen.
13:29
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And he did.
13:31
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
He wrote Golden Years and,
13:33
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
of course,
13:34
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Fame later on.
13:35
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
So he always wanted to be.
13:37
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
known as a soul singer.
13:39
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Yeah.
13:40
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I wondered why,
13:42
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
because it's interesting because Fame and Golden Years,
13:46
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Golden Years then appears on Station to Station and they feel very much
13:50
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
connected.
13:51
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
But at that point he goes on to make Station to Station.
13:54
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
You're not around for that record,
13:57
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Tony. What happened there?
13:58
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Because to me you would have seemed a natural fit for that record.
14:02
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Well, we were 6 ,000 miles apart.
14:05
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
He was in L .A.
14:06
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And I was in London.
14:09
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And it just wasn't
14:13
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
worth flying me over to do it.
14:15
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
He met someone he liked to work with.
14:17
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And, you know,
14:18
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
David was always a co -producer.
14:19
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
He was very intelligent and he knew how records
14:23
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
were made.
14:24
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
But,
14:25
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
you know, of course,
14:26
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
he needed a companion to help him with all the chores.
14:31
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
So, but,
14:31
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
you know,
14:32
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
it's not the first time he did that.
14:35
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I think that is the first time he did that,
14:38
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
but he did it again with other producers.
14:41
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I didn't mind because he's got every right to do that.
14:44
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I mean,
14:45
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
what does stand out from his creativity in the
14:49
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
studio,
14:50
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Tony?
14:50
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Because obviously you worked on records like Scary Monsters as well,
14:54
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
which another experimental album,
14:56
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
and you worked on later albums such as The Next Day.
15:00
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
and obviously the final album,
15:01
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Blackstar.
15:01
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
What stands out about his creativity in the studio?
15:04
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Because I read that he would often finish songs in the studio,
15:07
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
whereas maybe in the early 70s,
15:09
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
late 60s,
15:10
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
he would come into the studio with a finished cut.
15:12
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Is that correct?
15:13
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
That's right.
15:15
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
When we started albums...
15:17
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
uh he always had a working title which some of them
15:21
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
are very funny and uh and a working title and he
15:25
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
would just sort of go a la la la la la when he was singing the track
15:29
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
he had no idea what the title was going to be like and what the
15:33
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
lyrics were going to be or what the song was about so there was
15:37
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
uh i'm one of the few producers who would tolerate that
15:42
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Because you have to know what the album's about so you can bring
15:46
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
in certain elements that would embellish the idea of the album or the message,
15:50
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
the message of the album.
15:51
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Of course,
15:52
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
yeah.
15:53
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And of course,
15:54
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
in those days,
15:55
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
the album was a real true art form.
15:58
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
It started out as just a collection of songs,
16:02
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
but then people started making albums with themes.
16:05
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And David was certainly one of the first ones to do that.
16:09
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Absolutely.
16:09
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
The low record,
16:12
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
the second half of the record,
16:14
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
always reminds me of certain pieces of classical music,
16:18
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
particularly subterraneans.
16:20
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
What was it like working on those tracks?
16:22
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Because I imagine the studio must have been a very atmospheric place
16:26
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
at the time.
16:28
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Well, he fell in love with Brian Eno's music.
16:32
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And especially one album,
16:35
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I forget the name of the album.
16:36
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And I did too.
16:39
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I thought Brian Eno was a genius.
16:41
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
He was coming up with something that didn't require distorted electric
16:45
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
guitars.
16:46
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
stuff it was just beautiful music he was making and it was quasi
16:50
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
classical of course yeah of the later the later period you
16:55
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
know the stravinsky period and stuff like that yeah and uh so i
16:59
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
was keen on on working with him and then we had a little uh phone
17:03
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
call which is the first time i heard the the expression chin wag and
17:08
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
so we had a three -way phone call
17:11
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And then we got on really great.
17:13
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
We discussed how we were going to proceed.
17:15
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And when Brian came into the studio for Lowe,
17:18
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
he actually stayed for only three weeks because
17:22
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
he wanted to get all his bits done.
17:25
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And I say bits because he had a lot of great ideas.
17:28
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And we let him do his stuff for
17:32
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
the first two weeks.
17:33
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And then he left to go back to Roxy Music.
17:35
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Yeah, yeah.
17:36
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I mean, creatively,
17:38
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
that's really interesting.
17:39
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Maybe you've kind of answered my question,
17:41
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
but I guess working with David and Brian Eno and yourself,
17:45
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
what did each person bring to the table?
17:49
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
And I was going to ask you,
17:50
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
was that difficult?
17:51
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
But it sounds actually a fairly enjoyable process,
17:54
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
the way you've discussed it there.
17:57
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Well, what I brought was like years of musical experience.
18:01
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I mean, I started out in rock and roll bands,
18:03
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
and I played in high schools and churches and stuff as a kid.
18:06
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And then I studied classical arranging
18:11
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
with my high school teacher,
18:13
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
who turned me into a...
18:16
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
his own private pupil.
18:17
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
I used to stay after school and work with this lovely man called Dr.
18:21
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
Silberman,
18:21
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
and he taught me how to set up a score,
18:24
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
how to write violins,
18:26
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
and especially violas,
18:27
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
which uses the craziest clef,
18:30
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
C -clef.
18:31
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And so I came
18:35
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
to the group as a consummate musician,
18:38
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
composer,
18:39
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
arranger,
18:40
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
and also I learned recording techniques.
18:45
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
from initially Glyn Johns,
18:47
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
who begrudgingly showed me how to do something.
18:50
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
And to this day,
18:51
S… Speaker 2 (260617_1608)
he's not a very nice person.
18:54
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Oh, really?
18:55
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Oh,
18:56
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
gosh. So how about,
18:58
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I was going to ask you how that compared with Haddon Hall,
19:02
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
because I know you work with Woody.
19:05
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Mick Ronson,
19:06
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
not Trevor Boulder at this point,
19:08
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
you were the bass player,
19:09
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
but The Man Who Sold The World.
19:10
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
I read that David was very involved with Angela Bowie and
19:14
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
the band were kind of left to work on the arrangements and maybe a little bit of
19:18
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
the writing, although that's contested.
19:20
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
How did that compare?
19:21
S… Speaker 1 (260617_1608)
Because it sounds like,

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