Moja snimka 12

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S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

In our area there are circulating fans and maybe

0:05

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

there is some information from my side.

0:07

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

So this type of fans actually are not regulated,

0:10

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

they are exempt in Europe.

0:13

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

But there are some interests to bring them in because at

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S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

the moment these are also creating new codes for the existing fan recognition.

0:22

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

also Ronald Pierce who is not here today but he said he has it on

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S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

the list so we have to get some some information and

0:31

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

Amcar is right there in the US I guess it's

0:35

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

right now it's also in case and yeah you

0:39

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

see interesting influences

0:42

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I won't have to introduce me since I got to do this about two

0:46

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

hours ago.

0:47

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So a little bit about me.

0:49

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I'm a mechanical engineer,

0:50

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

a couple others.

0:51

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I work for a company called Big Ice Fans,

0:54

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

which has a funny name,

0:56

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

so I always like to mention that I'm an engineer.

0:57

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I'm on the board of Directors Gramka.

0:59

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I've got two interesting facts.

1:01

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I've sent an experiment to the International Space Station,

1:03

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

and I've helped write a federal law in the US.

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So that's me.

1:07

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

uh i'm a technical person despite the fact that i work with a funny neighbor

1:11

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

how many people know what an hdls fan is and familiar with the concept

1:15

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

a little bit all right so it's a big ceiling fan uh

1:19

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

2 .1 to 7 .3 meters in diameter mounted to the ceiling generally

1:24

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

has a vsd and a motor sometimes they're gear driven sometimes a direct rod large

1:29

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

diameter obviously with that up to 7 .3 meters in diameter

1:35

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

Rather small motors,

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

typically less than 2 ,000 watts.

1:39

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

In the U .S.,

1:41

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

they're defined as large diameter ceiling fans.

1:43

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

That's the product classification.

1:45

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HVLS,

1:46

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

high volume, low speed,

1:47

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

is more of a marketing term.

1:48

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

What we're trying to do partially is to define what

1:52

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

HVLS is.

1:53

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So there are kind of two fans,

1:56

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

the types that fall under LDCF.

1:58

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You have HVLS fans,

1:59

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

which look back.

2:00

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

And then you have LDCF.

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residential products which are large in diameter but are really residential products so something like

2:07

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

with a 30 to maybe 70 watt motor it happens to be large in diameter but

2:11

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

it doesn't have the performance you're looking at 340 cubic meters per minute versus

2:16

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

something like 2800 or more cubic meters per minute for

2:20

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

a true hvls so when you think of the two products when i say hvls fan

2:24

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

think of that thing uh not

2:30

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

Alright, so as we talk about HVLS fans,

2:32

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

generally speaking,

2:34

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

the standard method of test looks at input power and

2:38

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

output airflow.

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

We can calculate a wired air efficiency off that.

2:42

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I think most people here aren't familiar with wire air efficiency,

2:44

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

but it's just output air power divided by input power,

2:48

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

which includes all the losses through the motor,

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

the gearbox,

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

and the drive, if you have a gearbox or not.

2:56

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

We have an issue in the HVLS fan industry.

3:00

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

The products are predominantly used for cooling.

3:02

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

They're either a replacement or a way to minimize traditional air conditioning,

3:06

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especially in a mild climate.

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

And then in the winter,

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we use them for air mixing.

3:10

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

It reduces the energy consumption heaters.

3:12

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

The products are very energy efficient.

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They help reduce air conditioning energy,

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

heating energy.

3:18

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

However,

3:19

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

bad readings are leading to the products not performing in the marketplace

3:23

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

as they should.

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So what we're going to focus on in the next little bit is basically how bad the riggings

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are.

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As I talk about wired air efficiency and how bad the ratings are,

3:33

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I did want to throw this up just for some scale.

3:35

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

Wired air efficiency on an HVLS fan is around 35%,

3:39

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

which is a super high number.

3:41

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

But if you look at it as a flow versus power efficacy,

3:45

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

a rooftop supply fan for a small rooftop

3:49

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

unit is about 0 .1 cmm per watt.

3:53

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

You can see for an HVLS fan,

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

we're...

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

4 to almost 10 times that.

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So we produce very large flows for very low amounts of power.

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So while the wired air efficiency may not be super high,

4:04

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

it is a rather efficient product.

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

And as a substitution for air conditioning,

4:09

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

we're about 1 .25 the energy intensity on a per square meter basis.

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So overall,

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

a very high efficiency product as far as the

4:18

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

technology that's the alternative that we're replacing.

4:21

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

Getting the products to work,

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

getting them to work correctly is important because it has such low energy intensity,

4:26

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

especially in Europe where we have a lot of climates that aren't necessarily ripe

4:31

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

for air conditioning,

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

not nearly as hot as we see in the southern U .S.

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Light air conditioning at best.

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

We run a very mild lot of my hotel room doesn't air conditioning in,

4:39

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

but a ceiling fan sure would have been nice else then.

4:42

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So with that,

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

the project that we did was basically we took the AMCA certified ratings,

4:47

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

so that's third -party validated performance data.

4:50

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

and we compared it to three publicly available data sets.

4:52

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

The U .S.

4:53

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Department of Energy's database,

4:54

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California's database,

4:56

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

and then we went out and scoured the internet for marketing literature.

5:00

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and just looked at how the performance data that was available

5:04

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

to designers on the market.

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We compared the lower three to the first one,

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and for this presentation,

5:08

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

just to make it easy,

5:09

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

we focused on the 20 -foot or the 6 .1 -meter fans.

5:13

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

The data set was rather large,

5:15

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

235 fans in the AMCA CRP,

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

383,

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

1026,

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and then 48,

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

but that was only for the 20 -foot diameter.

5:23

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So pretty large data analysis went through.

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We created performance curves.

5:28

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So this is the AMCA certified data.

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

These are typical fans,

5:32

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

so it just kind of shows you the flow versus power profiles or

5:36

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

typical diameters.

5:40

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

We created performance envelopes.

5:42

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So this kind of shows what you'd expect to see.

5:44

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

We've got these for all of the available common diameters.

5:47

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So it kind of gives a designer an idea of,

5:49

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

hey, if it's outside of this envelope,

5:51

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

maybe that rating isn't as good as I think it might be.

5:53

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

Maybe I should see if the data smells bad.

5:56

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

Same thing for here and for here.

6:00

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

If you really dig into it and start to look at the numbers,

6:04

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

so this is airflow versus power for the 6 .1 meter fans.

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

The red line represents 100 % wire to air efficiency.

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

You'll notice that all of the EMCA certified fans with third -party validated

6:15

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

performance are below the red line.

6:18

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

That's a good thing.

6:18

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

Fans shouldn't be above the red line.

6:20

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

You'll notice that all of the non -third -party certified fans,

6:23

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

with the exception of two,

6:24

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

are among 100 % efficiencies.

6:26

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

That doesn't take a gas engineer to figure out that fans shouldn't probably

6:30

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

be over 100 % efficient,

6:32

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

wire to air,

6:33

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

but we've got a bunch of them.

6:36

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

When you take a look at it as wired air efficiency versus airflow,

6:40

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

again, for the 20 -foot bands,

6:41

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

you'll see the same thing.

6:43

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

A lot of numbers over 100%,

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

some of them over 1 ,000%.

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S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

And so because engineers don't have

6:52

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

or...

6:53

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

Consumers don't have the ability to really do the math in their heads or to have any

6:57

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

familiarity what the numbers should be.

6:59

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

You end up with this market misrepresentation where the fastest printing press wins.

7:03

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Someone rolls out a product at 200 ,000 CFM,

7:07

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the next company goes to 50,

7:08

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then 300, then 400,

7:09

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then 500, then 600,

7:10

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all for the same input power.

7:12

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So when you look at it combined,

7:14

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

you can kind of see the whisker charts.

7:16

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

If you start in the upper left,

7:18

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

input power is pretty normal,

7:19

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

AMCA versus non -AMCA.

7:22

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probably because power is something that's easy to measure in the field,

7:25

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

and if you give somebody a bad power number,

7:26

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

you may burn down their building.

7:28

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So we see a pretty good alignment between power between the

7:32

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

certified and non -certified price.

7:34

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

We go to airflow,

7:34

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

it clearly falls apart.

7:36

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

All of the 20 -footed or 6 .1 -meter AMCA fans are in the same relative

7:40

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

range.

7:40

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

There is not a single non -certified fan that performs

7:45

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

down to the AMCA levels,

7:47

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

and then if you go to wired and air efficiency,

7:49

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

you can really see the disparity.

7:51

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

These are all around 30 -ish percent,

7:54

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

maybe 25,

7:55

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

maybe 35.

7:56

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

These start there and then go up over 1 ,000.

8:00

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So you can clearly see that the market is highly polluted with bad data.

8:04

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

You've got designers using airflow values that are three,

8:08

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

four, five times what the fans can actually produce,

8:10

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

which obviously leads to designs that do not work.

8:15

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So, from a specifying standpoint,

8:18

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

if I were an engineer on a project using an HVLS fan,

8:21

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I'd specify reasonable input power,

8:24

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I would specify third -party ratings,

8:26

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I would make sure it was either tested to ISO 21684 or

8:30

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

AMPA 230,

8:31

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

with my third -party lab,

8:33

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

with third -party certified ratings.

8:37

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

If you want to do your own wired air efficiency calculations,

8:40

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I'm not going to go through the details.

8:41

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

It's basically pressure times flow.

8:43

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

That'll get you your output air power,

8:45

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

divide that by your input air power.

8:47

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

If it's in the range of 25 to 40%,

8:50

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

that's likely to be true.

8:52

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I can't tell you it's accurate,

8:53

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

but I also can't tell you it's false.

8:54

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

If it's above 40%,

8:56

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

you might have a fan there.

8:58

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

I don't know many that actually have any data that gets you there,

9:01

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

but it's not totally impossible.

9:03

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

50 to 99% is really unlikely, obviously, while 99% is high.

9:07

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

So that's just a quick way if you've got manufacturer's data in

9:11

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

your hand to go through and verify it.

9:13

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

From a regulatory standpoint,

9:14

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

what I would recommend or what Anthony would recommend is specify

9:19

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

what an HVOS fan is,

9:20

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

large diameter,

9:21

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

greater than 200 watts input power.

9:23

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

Either regulate based off of CFEI,

9:25

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

which is like FEI but for ceiling fans,

9:27

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

1 .0 at full speed,

9:29

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

and 1 .31 at part speed.

9:32

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

Two sample testing,

9:33

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

we test two fans and then combine them to create a rating.

9:36

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

and then require input power cfei and airflow as

9:41

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

well as diameter wired air efficiency would also work not as ideal just

9:45

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

because it's two separate regulations but if it's a deal breaker wired air would

9:49

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

work and then obviously strong enforcement with the market being as dirty as

9:54

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

it currently is without enforcement we've not seen much effort to clean up under

9:58

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

the previous administration in the united states there were 3 .2 million dollars in fines

10:02

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

handed out

10:02

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

for illegal hbos fan performance data lack of registration etc under

10:07

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

this new administration that's stopped and so we've seen an influx another

10:11

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

influx of bad fans with that performance data

10:34

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

Thank you very much.

10:35

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

Very interesting data analysis.

10:37

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

I was wondering if Anker has done similar data analysis for

10:42

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

other fan types,

10:43

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

for example, centrifugal fans.

10:45

S… Speaker 2 (Moja snimka 12)

Yeah.

10:46

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

This is the first time that we tapped our

10:50

S… Speaker 1 (Moja snimka 12)

certified ratings database for this kind of analysis.

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