Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation

0:02

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Okay, so the course is about, the module is about neuroscience and law. So the idea is to explain to you why it might be interesting to discuss the interactions between neurobiology on one side and law on the other side.

0:18

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I mean, as for me, as you know, of course, I'm not at all an expert in law, so I'm just neurobiologist. But I've been working for some time with this person, Marie Lamarche here, who is a professor of law at the University of Bordeaux.

0:39

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

She will not participate directly in the module, but she helped me to conceive the presentation I'm going to do. And also to, we discussed a lot about the interest and the possible links between neuroscience and law.

0:58

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So this is for the two participants from Bordeaux. And then there will be two participants from Alexandria, Nihal El-Bana and Ahmed El-Hawagi, who are both associate professors of law at the Faculty of Law in Alexandria.

1:18

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And they will make a specific presentation to you on neuroeconomy, on criminal law. Ahmed, in particular, will tell you about criminal law. And then I will not go really into the details. I will more focus on, well, general aspects and neurobiological basis of what could be interesting for this module.

1:45

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So you will have my presentation, and as you will see during my presentation, I will insist a bit on the decision-making processes and neurobiological basis of those decision-making processes and how this can affect or this can interact with law.

2:12

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So I have prepared also a folder on Moodle with different articles about these neurobiological aspects of decision-making so that you can understand the biological basis to these processes.

2:33

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And then you can use those basis to try to understand what could be the connections, what could be the links with law.

2:44

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I will, during my presentation today, I will try to make clear what could be the link and give you some examples.

2:52

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And then Nihal and Ahmed will contact you to organize lectures later on. If they don't, you can tell me, but I mean, they will do my, my just, my only concern is about the timing, because we need not wait too long to start their lectures.

3:14

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And then what we will ask you to do as an assessment is to work by group of three, probably three students from different universities, but I will make the details very clear later on.

3:29

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And to work on some items, some questions like case reports, you know, that we will ask you to prepare a presentation to explain your point of view, and then to present your thoughts and your work on Zoom to the teachers that are written here.

3:54

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So basically, the three of us, Nihal, El-Bana, Ahmed, Kwawegi, and myself.

4:01

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And that is part of the work that we ask you to do.

4:05

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But before starting that work, you will need to read a bit and understand what is the link, what could be the link between neuroscience and law.

4:16

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So I'm going to start here with the presentation of the different participants, teachers.

4:29

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So I will make, as I said, a general talk about the legal and ethical implications of neuroscience for law.

4:40

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And also how law reciprocally, you know, how law can, how can I say, can limit the development of neuroscience or control the development of neuroscience.

4:56

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

That will be more as a conclusion at the end of my talk.

5:00

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Then I prepared a folder with articles about neurobiological basis of decision making.

5:07

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So that shouldn't be really a lecture, but more personal activities for you.

5:12

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And then Nihal will tell you about free will and neuroscience.

5:18

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Sorry.

5:21

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Oops.

5:27

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And as I said, Ahmed will tell you more about criminal law.

5:32

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, of course, as for me, in this part, I will refer more to French law because I'm French and this is what I know and what my colleagues at the Faculty of Law here in Bordeaux, they also know.

5:52

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So some aspects, they can be, of course, extended to other law systems, some not.

6:01

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But the legal and ethical implications, they are the same everywhere for every country.

6:09

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You know, just, I mean, the problems that are put forward by the neuroscience discoveries are the same.

6:22

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But the way the law system responds to this problem is different according to the country because it has to follow the law system that is specific of every country.

6:34

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Okay.

6:35

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So I will, of course, talk about our system.

6:38

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I will refer not that much, but I will refer at some points to articles of the French law.

6:44

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Of course, they are not valid in other countries, but the idea behind it is the same, is that law has to make decisions and to write articles or to seize the problem, you know, and respond according to its own system.

7:05

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

One very big difference between neuroscience on one side and law on the other side is that in neuroscience, we all study phenomenon and processes that are universal.

7:20

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So they are true for all human beings, but not only, they are true for all animals, all animals with a nervous system at least.

7:29

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And that includes even very, very simple organisms.

7:35

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So it's something that pretends to be really universal.

7:40

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You know, the mechanical, mechanistic processes, they are really the same everywhere and there is no real border of any kind between these different aspects.

7:57

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And the situation is totally different for law because law is specific to the different countries.

8:05

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Of course, the law systems, they are different and then they can be considered only in reference to their countries.

8:21

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So this is an important difference because then it means that different societies, human societies, they respond in a different way to the same problems, the same biological problems.

8:35

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

This has to be kept in mind and we're not here at all to evaluate if this is better in that way or worse in the other way because that's not the problem.

8:47

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

The problem is that the law follows or the response that the law makes, the responses that the law makes, it follows the system that is at stake in that country.

9:04

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So once again, there are points that we will discuss and the rest, the law response, they may be valid for a given country, in my case, in France.

9:16

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But of course, those articles, they will not apply in other countries, sometimes not in other European countries and even less in extra European countries.

9:28

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

This is also true for the case reports that we will ask you to work on.

9:37

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Sometimes the questions, they are relevant in some countries, but not in others.

9:47

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But it doesn't matter, you must think and work on this as neurobiologists who have to explore the neurobiological basis of that particular question.

10:00

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

question, regardless of its relevance in your particular country, for instance. At least it is

10:07

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

relevant somewhere for some human societies. And another point is that, of course, the response

10:14

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

that you will elaborate to that concern or to that question, it can be different from one country to

10:21

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

another. And we don't really care about the country of reference that you choose. You know,

10:29

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

it can be any country, but it has to be relevant within this particular framework. Okay? So do you

10:38

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

have any question first about this very general introduction? No, no particular question. Okay,

11:09

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

so the questions we will ask during that first lecture is, why are we interested in connections

11:16

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

between law and neuroscience? Then how we can work out those connections and try to

11:27

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

use neuroscience to produce results that are of interest for law? So why? How we can produce these

11:35

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

results? And the last question that will be more as a conclusion, as I said before, is how far

11:42

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

we can use neuroscience given the law context, the law framework we are living with? So how far is,

11:54

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

for instance, what are the dangers? What are the dangers of developing your science? And what are the

12:01

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

limitations to the development of neuroscience that law has to enforce to protect the individuals? Okay,

12:09

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

just to make it clear. So why first are there connections? Or is there an interest to discuss

12:18

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

these connections between law and neuroscience? Why law is involved in neuroscience? First, you must

12:24

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

understand that the legal system is based on the individual, what's the role of the individual in the

12:32

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

society, and the will of this individual. So this is a first very important point. We will refer to the

12:38

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

will of an individual at different points in the lecture. And of course, if we talk about

12:46

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

the will of an individual, then there are links between the will, the expression of the will of

12:53

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

someone, and neuroscience. Because the will of someone is based on the decision that this individual has

13:01

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

taken and the decision they are taken through neurobiological processes. So this is the first very

13:09

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

important aspect and probably the most important aspect here in the entire module. Then law already

13:22

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

interacts with biology in general. And there are many countries where they are bioethics law.

13:29

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Bioethics law explains how the individual or the society must behave in front of biology-related questions.

13:45

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So it can be for reproduction, it can be for death, it can be to allow some biological explorations.

13:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

There are different possibilities, but they already have or sorry, they already are bioethics law.

14:10

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And now what we see is the development of neuroethics that are low or lower, maybe not yet low, but at least

14:19

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

thoughts focused on the development of neuroscience and how the new discoveries in neuroscience, they may impact

14:28

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

the law or they require to establish new law. Of course, and I said a word before that, there are some dangers in using

14:42

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

neuroscience results. And this is why we asked this question at the very end about how far we should go with

14:49

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

neuroscience and how far law should interfere with neuroscience results. The idea is here to protect the individual

14:58

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to gain those possible dangers, again, those possible dangers, again, those possible dangers.

15:00

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I will make it in one slide, please. I will make a parallel between genetic testing and

15:07

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

genetic testing and manipulation. And we can compare to a certain extent the bioethics law

15:17

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

that are related to genetics with the influence of neuroscience. But there are differences that

15:26

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I will try to explain to you. And at the end, what is also important is the issue of human

15:33

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

dignity, because the law systems are in place to protect the individuals, but first of all,

15:42

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to protect the human dignity. And why are they regulations or laws to control the

15:56

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

use of biological manipulations, biological testings, in general? The reason is really

16:05

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to protect human dignity, according to the legal system of each countries, because the

16:12

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

human dignity definition might be a bit different according to the different countries.

16:19

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So these are the global points that we will talk about. And to try to illustrate those points,

16:28

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

here are some questions that may be asked to neuroscience. You can go through these different

16:36

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

questions. You see, for instance, of course, in law, one of the first question, if you're facing

16:43

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

someone with a behavior that could be illegal behavior, for instance, is this person responsible for the

16:50

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

behavior? Is anyone responsible for his behavior in general, you know, but also in particular conditions?

17:03

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Related to that first question, of course, what was this person's mental state at the time of the act?

17:09

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Because someone may be irresponsible for one's behavior in general, or at a particular time point.

17:22

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So these are two different aspects that are, of course, extremely important in terms of law,

17:29

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

because this underlies the quality of the will of the person. As I said before,

17:37

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

the legal system is based on the will of an individual. So we need to know if this was the

17:43

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

will of the individual, or not really his will, but something that happened independently of his will.

17:52

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

To what extent did this person have the capacity to act differently? For instance, if you want to

18:00

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

protect yourself, someone, you, sometimes you don't have any other choice than doing something illegal,

18:08

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So what are the effects of processes that affect neurobiology, like addiction,

18:17

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

neurodevelopment, could be in the young age or in the elderly, adolescence, advanced age, on the

18:25

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

person's ability to control their behavior? We know that those developmental processes, they may affect,

18:31

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

of course, the function of different neural circuits.

18:39

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But then those questions, they can be asked more precisely, for instance, in a job interview, to what extent is this person competent?

18:48

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

They are temptatives to use neuroscience or, or neuroscience like, you know, processes to understand if someone can do the job, is a good fit for a job ad.

19:03

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

For instance, what do they remember? It's another question that may arise in some cases, like in some trials.

19:11

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And what do they remember, how accurate is this person's memory, because you can remember something, but the memory cannot be very accurate.

19:22

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And then to what extent we must rely to the memory that the person has.

19:26

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So the difference between these two questions is, do you remember something?

19:30

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And is what you are remembering very accurate and really true?

19:37

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

What are the effects of emotion on memory, that memory, on your behavior, on your motivation, that is on the will that you will express?

19:51

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Is this person telling the truth? How intense is the, this person's pain, for instance, and this is one point.

19:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Thank you so much.

19:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Thanks tell to me.

20:00

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

will come back to? And how damaged is this person's brain? Of course, if the brain is damaged,

20:07

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

you may infere that there will be some neurobiological consequences. So those are

20:12

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

examples of questions that the law system may ask to neuroscience and where neuroscience can say

20:21

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

something, okay? Something that can be useful for law in some cases or not. And I will try to explain

20:32

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to you what could be useful, what is not useful. And very surprisingly, when I talk to some,

20:44

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to law students or even law professionals, sometimes they believe that neuroscience can do

20:50

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

much more that we are really able to do, you know? Because they don't know the scientific basis

20:58

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

of neurobiology in general. So they idealize a little bit the importance and the validity of the

21:08

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

results we can obtain with neuroscience and also the capacity to apply those results to a particular

21:18

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

individual. This is an important point I will come back to later. So you see that in, if you look at

21:29

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

all those questions, what we ask neuroscience is to provide some evidence, you know, for example,

21:39

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

some evidence that a person is competent, which is probably the most difficult, one of the most

21:45

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

difficult question here, or an evidence that this person is responsible for his behavior in general,

21:54

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

or was responsible for his behavior at a particular time point, or an evidence that the person remembers

22:03

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

something and has an accurate memory or an evidence that someone is telling the truth, you know,

22:14

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

this truth detection system. So we ask neuroscience to help law by providing evidence. Why is it so important?

22:25

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Because law is based on evidence. And this is a very, very general presentation of the law of evidence. So of course,

22:36

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

in law, we ask if some statement, any statement can be proven. If you have two person telling different

22:48

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

statements and fighting with different statements and fighting with different statements, then the question

22:53

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

that we ask the law system is how to prove that one statement is true, is the reality, and the other not.

23:03

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

There are several types of evidence. It can be a written testimony. In law, it can be presumption of facts.

23:10

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

It can be the confession or oath, different ways to provide evidence. But there are other methods,

23:20

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

like investigation to bring some evidence, court appearances, you know, when someone testifies in the court,

23:30

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and expert opinion. So this is why in courts, the law system asks for the opinions of experts,

23:39

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

particularly in biology, and now more and more in neuroscience. So these are the different types of

23:48

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

proofs. And just, there are different systems of evidence, legal evidence and free evidence. Legal

23:55

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

evidence are some documents that are official documents, and they are signed by parties, you know,

24:00

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and this is used as a proof. A contract is a proof. This is a legal evidence, you know, and cannot be

24:10

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

put in question, as long as it's been signed by persons expressing their free will. And there are

24:19

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

free evidence that are any other type of evidence that you can provide, for instance, by asking experts,

24:27

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

or by witnessing some facts or by witnessing some facts or different things. Okay. So legal evidence are

24:32

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

documents, official documents, and free evidence are the rest. But there are limits of evidence.

24:43

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You cannot use any type of evidence anywhere. So the limits, they are based on the requirement of fairness

24:54

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

evidence in evidence. And that means that those evidence

24:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

decisions that are underги

24:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

so that's the errors.

24:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And if you see things barrier areas, this is something that you just use,

24:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

uh

25:00

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

required to respect the right of physical integrity.

25:03

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So you're not allowed to harm someone to obtain an evidence,

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to obtain a proof.

25:10

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

This is very important, you know.

25:12

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

In the case of biomedical expertise, and for us here,

25:16

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

you must be sure that you will not harm the persons

25:24

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and you will not attend to the physical integrity of a person

25:30

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to obtain an evidence.

25:34

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

That goes together with the right to privacy.

25:38

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You must respect the privacy of someone's life

25:42

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

when you obtain an evidence.

25:45

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So you cannot ask someone to say everything about his life

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

just to get the evidence.

25:54

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

There are some limits that you must respect

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to respect the right of privacy.

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You must respect the inviolability of the home, the person.

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You're not allowed to search for evidence in the home of a person

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

unless it's been officially authorized.

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You must respect the confidentiality of correspondence.

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

All this goes together with the right to privacy

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and, to a lesser extent, to the right to physical integrity.

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And, of course, you know very well,

26:30

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

there are professional secrecy investigations

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and business matters that may limit the use of evidence.

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And, of course, there are legal controversies

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

or fights about the respect, about those limitations.

26:48

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I mean, it's very clear when you talk about business matters,

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S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

for instance, what you're allowed to say,

26:53

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

what you're not allowed.

26:55

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And also another last point here, very important,

26:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

is the respect for adversarial principle,

27:02

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

which means that one evidence must be able to be contradicted.

27:10

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, an evidence could be discussed, okay?

27:17

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Which is very important,

27:19

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

because then it means that scientific evidence

27:22

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

respects this principle.

27:25

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

They can be discussed,

27:26

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and very often in the courts,

27:29

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

there are discussions

27:31

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

about the validity of a scientific proof

27:35

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

with experts from different,

27:38

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

with different points of view.

27:41

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But you cannot use evidence

27:44

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

like religious principle,

27:48

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

which cannot be contradicted.

27:50

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, you cannot use that in a court

27:57

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

as an evidence.

28:00

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I mean, religion can be part of the legal system,

28:03

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

but this is something different.

28:04

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

It cannot be used as an evidence.

28:09

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Okay.

28:12

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Yes, someone wants to talk?

28:15

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Yes.

28:16

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, you mentioned that

28:17

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

you are not allowed to harm the person

28:21

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to get the evidence.

28:23

S… Speaker 3 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Yes.

28:24

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Like, how much is this

28:25

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

a lot of different techniques?

28:28

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Sorry, sorry.

28:28

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

How much?

28:30

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

How much this is accurate?

28:32

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Because we see a lot of

28:33

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

different techniques

28:35

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to get information from the person

28:40

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

by harming him

28:42

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

either physically or psychologically.

28:45

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, to force him to admit something.

28:49

S… Speaker 3 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Yes, yes.

28:50

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But you must make the difference

28:52

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

between what is legally authorized

28:55

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and what is done.

28:58

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You know, there are many, many things

29:00

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

that are done

29:00

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

that are just illegal.

29:03

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

It's illegal in general,

29:05

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

in all systems.

29:07

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But sometimes there are,

29:09

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I mean, it's not a secret, of course,

29:11

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

there are many countries

29:13

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

who are using illegal methods

29:16

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to obtain information

29:19

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

or evidence,

29:21

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

even though these methods,

29:24

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

they are illegal in their own country.

29:27

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So then,

29:28

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

it's a matter of discussion.

29:29

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But normally,

29:31

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

in a court,

29:32

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

if you have used

29:33

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

illegal methods

29:35

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to obtain

29:35

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

an information

29:37

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

or an evidence,

29:38

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

this evidence

29:39

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

cannot be considered

29:41

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

at the court.

29:42

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and then it's not valid.

29:45

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Okay.

29:47

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But we know it exists,

29:50

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

of course.

29:51

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

The legal system

29:53

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

is something

29:54

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

that is put in place

29:55

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to respect

29:57

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

the human dignity.

29:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

here.

30:00

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

as I said before, and to respect the equity between individuals.

30:06

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But, of course, it poses limits that many groups want to overcome,

30:13

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and they do it, you know, sometimes.

30:16

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

They may do that illegally, and then the problem is to know

30:22

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to what extent, sorry, to what extent this will be accepted,

30:29

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

the evidence obtained by these ways, they will be accepted or not by the system.

30:35

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And this is why we're talking about state of law or not, you know.

30:43

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

The state of law are the ones who respect their own law system, you know,

30:50

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and the ones that do not respect their law system, they just work illegally.

30:56

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Regardless of the law system, but what is important is not to respect

31:01

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

the law system of someone else, but to respect the law system

31:05

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

of your own country, okay?

31:10

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Okay, thank you.

31:13

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Okay.

31:16

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So how can we use neuroscience in law?

31:23

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So this is a bit of a detailed version of the, or some elements that help

31:34

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to answer the questions that I asked before.

31:36

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You know, when we were here, we asked questions, and now those questions,

31:43

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

they will rely on these different elements to provide answers.

31:49

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So every individual must be held accountable for the offenses

31:52

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

they have committed.

31:53

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, of course, one person that offends someone is responsible for that

32:01

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and must be held accountable.

32:05

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But then this responsibility, this accountability of someone,

32:10

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

it's based on the principle that this individual is of sound mind,

32:17

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

or conversely, that he had mental disorders that lead to a reduction

32:22

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

in the responsibility and this accountability.

32:26

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And this can be to the extent that the person is, I mean,

32:35

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

proved to be totally irresponsible or cannot be held accountable

32:41

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

if mental disorders, for instance, are too high, too strong.

32:48

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So these two first items, they really go together.

32:52

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And this is, of course, something extremely difficult to establish in general.

32:59

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So one person is accountable for the offenses, fine,

33:05

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

but then he's accountable only if he was in a mental state

33:11

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

that allows him to be held accountable.

33:18

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So the free will, we were talking about the will of an individual,

33:22

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

the free will of an individual, a sane individual, a healthy individual,

33:26

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

is expressed through the decision they make.

33:28

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And when you do an act, whatever it is,

33:31

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

then you took a decision to make this act,

33:36

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and this is the expression of the will.

33:39

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Okay?

33:39

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So the will is something that is inside your mind,

33:42

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and the way to express your will in the society

33:45

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

is to take a decision and make an action out of this decision.

33:56

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

The rules of law, so the way the society is organized,

33:59

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

emphasizes the autonomy of the individual and their consent,

34:04

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and therefore the externalization of their will.

34:08

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So we consider that someone is autonomous and consents to make an action,

34:16

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and this is how they externalize the will,

34:20

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

so how they make this decision.

34:23

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

It's important because it means that the decision,

34:27

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

they rely on the autonomy and the consentment of someone.

34:31

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, of course, if the autonomy of someone is not proved or is hindered,

34:38

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

or if the consentment was lacking,

34:42

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

then the decision is not considered as the own decision of the person,

34:48

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

but as a forced decision, for instance.

34:53

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And then it reduces the responsibility of the person.

34:58

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You understand?

35:00

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

This is basically pretty easy.

35:03

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So when we talk about the consentment, it means to sign contracts, to produce different legal acts in life, such, you see, setting a company, recognize a child, declare a work.

35:22

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So this type of different actions that have legal consequences.

35:28

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You must also understand that when we talk about law and neuroscience, this is not only about criminal law.

35:34

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

It's not about killing someone.

35:36

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You know, it's very rare, fortunately.

35:39

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But it's about that law is involved in all events of your life.

35:44

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

If you buy a house, if you sign a work contract, if you get married, all these actions, they have legal consequences.

35:53

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And all these actions, they must be produced by a free will.

35:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And that is by someone who is autonomous and has his full consentment.

36:12

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

However, well, this is a bit of a repetition, you know.

36:16

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So to be taken into consideration from a legal point of view, this will has to emanate from a lucid mind.

36:23

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

That is for someone, as it was written here, someone that is of sound mind, someone that has no impairmental faculties that could deprive the consent of its legal power.

36:39

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

This is just what I said, I mean, if the consent is proved to be not free, not the expression of the autonomy and the free will of the person, then the legal validity of this consent is reduced.

36:57

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

We were talking about autonomy, and you know that some individuals, because of impaired physical capacities or mental capacities, and when we talk about mental capacities, of course, we talk about neuroscience.

37:11

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

In that case, if they lose their autonomy, this may lead to the implementation of legal protection for the person, incapacity, guardianship, tutoring, and there are different types of legal protections with different levels.

37:33

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And they are a bit different, of course, and they are a bit different, of course, in the different countries, but they usually exist, and the society finds a way to compensate for the lack of autonomy and for the loss of lucid mind, you know, sound mind, from a legal point of view,

37:58

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to compensate for this loss, and to allow someone else or a system, you know, to take legal decision instead of that person.

38:10

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And more particularly, the abolition or the implement of discernment, sorry, may lead to criminal irresponsibility.

38:32

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, of course, in the worst case, you know, if a crime has been committed, then the accountability for that crime can be totally abolished for someone who is proved to have impaired mental faculties.

38:53

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, of course, you see that it's really important to understand what's the level of the mental capacities of someone, and this depends on the functioning of your nervous system.

39:11

S… Speaker 3 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, this is one point.

39:13

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And then there is another aspect, which is the last item in this slide, it's to know whether the decisions that are made by someone, they can be biased by circumstances, even for someone who has his full mental capacities, okay?

39:31

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Can it be biased by circumstances, pathologies, some pressure that are exerted by the environment, and that are not really fully already acknowledged by the legal system?

39:50

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, this is why I will talk to you later on about the possibility that chronic pain, for instance.

39:58

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, this is why I will talk to you later.

40:00

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

may induce some biases in the decision that are taken by someone and in the expression

40:07

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

of its consent and the expression of its free will. Excuse me? Yeah?

40:21

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I didn't quite understand the difference between criminal responsibility and civil responsibility.

40:27

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Yeah, that is not really important here. But civil responsibility is to compensate prejudice that has been made to someone.

40:40

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You know, the criminal responsibility will have as a consequence a punishment.

40:49

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Okay? The civil responsibility does not produce a punishment,

40:56

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

but it produces compensation to the victims. You see what I mean? For instance, if you have to pay

41:05

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

a certain amount to compensate for the offences that have been done to someone. So these are two things.

41:15

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

When you have a trial, you usually have trials, criminal trial and civil trial,

41:23

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to evaluate the loss and the compensation that are needed, and to evaluate the responsibility

41:33

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and the punishment that must be given to someone. So the punishment may be totally abolished,

41:40

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and then the victim is still a victim. So he has to be compensated for what he suffered from. You understand?

41:51

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Yes. So like an individual may have to pay for someone, but still he doesn't get what we call sometimes a

42:03

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

dark dot in his legal document. Like that. In his legal history doesn't get that.

42:09

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Yeah, of course, of course. But this is a far consequence. But at first, I mean, he doesn't

42:15

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

get any sentence. Doesn't get any sentence. So if he has no sentence, he has nothing written in his

42:22

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

recourse, of course. But the first point is that he doesn't get any sentence. He's not sentenced to anything,

42:28

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

any punishment. Okay? Okay, thanks. And even if the civil responsibility is still maintained,

42:37

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

then there are systems to avoid that particular person to pay for the civil responsibility. But it

42:46

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

can be, for instance, insurance are there for that. They can compensate instead of the person.

42:56

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Okay, thank you. Okay, so then, of course, we need to, you see from what, from the previous slide,

43:06

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

that it's really important to understand to what extent the mental capacities of an individual,

43:11

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

they are intact, or they've been impaired in a way or another, partly impaired, totally impaired. So

43:17

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

this is why they are very often psychiatric expertise in the court. And psychiatric expertise

43:25

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

are very often debated, you know, they are counter expertise, and people who are not of the same,

43:34

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

with the same points of view. And at the end, it remains a bit confusing for the for the jury.

43:41

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So then arise the possibility of using neuroscience to assess an individual's responsibility.

43:55

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I'm not very comfortable with this point, you know, because it suggests, or it says that neuroscience and

44:05

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

psychiatry, they are very different. One is based, neuroscience is based on the analysis of neurobiological

44:13

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

mechanisms. Wipe psychiatry is based on the analysis of mental states. Okay, fine. But mental states, they are

44:24

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

underlined by neurobiological mechanisms. So when we say that, it's, to my opinion, better to say that we would

44:37

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

like to go a bit deeper than a superficial psychiatric expertise. And we would like to understand what are the

44:46

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

mechanisms behind the different behaviours, or the mental capacities of someone, to try to understand more

44:55

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

precisely, what's the responsibility of an individual.

45:00

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I wouldn't oppose psychiatry and neuroscience, but just present neuroscience as a way to be more precise, more detailed, more mechanistic than usual psychiatric expertise.

45:16

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Okay. So the question of neuroscience, of using neuroscience, is to know whether it will provide a better objectivity, better reliability, better consensual interpretation.

45:31

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And the question marks are real because it's not always true, as you will see.

45:37

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But of course, if you go a bit deeper and you understand the mechanisms behind, if you can identify some real mechanisms that are impaired, then you have a further argument, objective argument and reliable argument to propose an evidence that supports an evidence.

46:00

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So the hypothesis behind using neuroscience is that the brain is in a physical state that underlies defined mental states.

46:13

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Well, for a neurobiologist, it's not very surprising.

46:17

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And then if it defines mental states, it also defines behaviors, and it has implication for predicting behavior.

46:27

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Physical states means that we can measure, and that's the importance of using neuroscience, of the idea of using neuroscience, is that you can use tools to measure this physical state.

46:44

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And by obtaining these values, then you can define mental state, and you can infer the type of behaviors, if the person, they are responsible or not for their behaviors.

47:06

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But nothing of this is easy.

47:09

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Measuring the physical state of the brain is something that might be quite difficult, in particular, if you respect physical integrity and so on.

47:20

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Once you get a measurement, okay, fine.

47:24

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But what do you do with that measurement?

47:26

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

How can you interpret this measurement?

47:28

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And you know that in neuroscience nowadays, we are far to be clear, to be sure of what could be the interpretation of a given measurement.

47:42

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And even if the interpretation of that particular measurement is quite clear to understand neurobiological process, a given neurobiological process, is it enough to define mental states?

47:58

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

This is another question.

47:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, there are questions.

48:02

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

It's not easy.

48:04

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But it's true also that neuroscience is progressing.

48:08

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And some developments, they are sometimes really important.

48:12

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And they change the way we look at those questions.

48:16

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And it changes the quality of the response we can bring by using neuroscience.

48:24

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Dear Professor.

48:25

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Yeah.

48:26

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Landry, excuse me.

48:27

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I just have a question on the previous slide, please.

48:32

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, because I've often heard about, let's say, psychiatric expertise during judicial expertise, meaning that their, let's say, professional advice was required by a judge before making a judicial decision.

48:53

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But concretely, I've also heard about psychological expertise, but I never heard about a neuroscientist expertise.

49:06

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Which is, you mean like, you know, concretely during, you know, a judicial trial.

49:16

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, do you know if there are some neuroscientists that are specialized as a neuroscientist expertise?

49:23

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Or is it still, you know, progressively implementing, but not real right now?

49:31

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

No, there are not anyone who is just working as an expert for courts.

49:40

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But yes, it is used, actually.

49:43

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

It is used.

49:44

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And it's not used as frequently as psychiatric, psychological expertise, because it has to be implemented little by little.

49:54

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But I will give you some examples.

49:55

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And there are some others.

49:56

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

There are even laws in France.

49:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

There are some other things.

49:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

There are some other things.

50:00

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

for instance, to use medical imaging in the law system.

50:05

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So, yes, yes, this is actually, this is you.

50:09

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I mean, you've not heard about that because this is pretty recent.

50:13

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

The law I was talking about has been published in 2011, for instance.

50:20

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But this is something that is currently implemented for, let's say, 10, 15 years.

50:31

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Yes, I am asking because I've seen on, for the ones that know on YouTube, Legend,

50:39

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

there is an interview of a psychiatrist.

50:42

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And that psychiatrist is specialized, specifically, I mean, like 100% of his expertise

50:53

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

is to be a psychiatrist for judicial trials and for judicial expertise.

51:02

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But I've never heard about scientists 100% specialized in this.

51:06

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

That's one last question.

51:07

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

No, you're right.

51:08

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You're right.

51:08

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But you're right, they are, to my knowledge, they are not any neurobiologist

51:12

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

who is dedicating 100% of his professional activity to be an expert for workhorse.

51:19

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Not to my knowledge, at least.

51:22

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

For the ones interested, I will put the reference in the chat.

51:25

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

It's, the psychiatrist is called Laurent Laillet.

51:29

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Okay.

51:33

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Okay, so now the question is, how can we do that?

51:35

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

You know, how can we do those measurements, as I was telling you about here?

51:41

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

How can we do these measurements?

51:43

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

How can we interpret those measurements to understand the biological mechanisms behind

51:52

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and how those mechanisms, they can account for a particle,

51:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

they can define a particular mental state and the behavior.

52:02

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And you will see that not everything of this is really clear at the moment.

52:10

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So how can we use the proof, the evidence given by neuroscience?

52:16

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

There are different ways neuroscience can be applied in law.

52:23

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

It can reinforce, challenge, detect, sort, etc.

52:27

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So let's go through this list.

52:29

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

First, reinforce by increasing the jury's confidence in a conclusion

52:36

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

that has been already reached by other non-neurobiologists,

52:42

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

non-neuroscientific evidence.

52:46

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

For instance, it's when you use different types of evidence to concourse,

52:51

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to converge to the same conclusion.

52:54

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Okay, this is fine.

52:55

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

This is easy to understand.

52:56

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And this is probably one of the most robust ways to use neuroscience

53:01

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

because it's not, doesn't stand alone.

53:04

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

It goes together with other evidence and other expertise.

53:13

S… Speaker 3 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Challenge.

53:14

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

That's the opposite.

53:15

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

It can question or contradict other evidence

53:18

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

in a case of when it's relevant to a legal proposition.

53:27

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

For instance, when there are, you know, some, let's say,

53:35

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

psychiatric expertise that has given an answer.

53:41

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And then by using another approach based on neuroscience,

53:45

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

you can contradict or you can question this evidence

53:50

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and try to demonstrate that things are not that clear

53:55

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and there is still some room for doubt, for instance,

54:02

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

which is very important in a jury.

54:05

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

It can detect, it can identify legally relevant facts.

54:11

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And this is very clear when there is a damage in the brain.

54:15

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

I will give you examples, but then this is widely used

54:19

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to prove that there are damage in the brain.

54:23

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

So we can think that brain functions may be altered,

54:32

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

may be modified by these injures.

54:35

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

But the detection, it's also, it's also used

54:44

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

to try to identify behaviors, for instance, lies.

54:50

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

And it's been used in quotes, but it's far from being accurate

54:57

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

and from being really reliable.

54:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

that Ст changin',

54:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Before we talk about that,

54:59

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

our eyes,

55:00

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

talking about, we were talking before about the idea that using neuroscience may be more reliable

55:06

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

than other approaches. When it comes to detecting Lyles, I wouldn't say it's really more reliable

55:14

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

at all. You know, it can be very reliable to identify injuries. It's not at all to detect

55:21

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

Lyles. So it all depends on what you're trying to detect. It can be the detection of mental

55:29

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

activities that will be evidence of a particular disease. But once again, it's not that easy. I will

55:37

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

give you the example of schizophrenia just after. It can sort by separating people into useful

55:45

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

categories. Well, this can be interesting when the judicial decision is to, for instance, to address

55:58

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

some people to a particular treatment. We can ask and we can use neuroscience to have some ideas about

56:09

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

whether this treatment will be efficient or not for given categories of person. So here is the example

56:17

S… Speaker 2 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

of, for instance, persons who are the most likely to respond to detoxification treatment. So that

56:25

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

could be used in this case. Intervene by providing new methods for achieving legal objectives. For

56:32

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

instance, by intervening on someone by imposing a pharmacological treatment that we can imagine,

56:41

S… Speaker 1 (Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation)

for instance, would help reduce recidivism. It's something that is highly thought of, but it's not very

Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation

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