Neuroscience and Law_Marc's presentation

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• Speaker 1 0:02
• Speaker 2 3:54
• Speaker 3 28:23

1. 0:02

   Fejezet 1: Okay, so the course is about, the module is about neuroscience and law. 232s · Speaker 1

   Okay, so the course is about, the module is about neuroscience and law. So the idea is to explain to you why it might be interesting to discuss the interactions between neurobiology on one side and law on the other side. I mean, as for me, …

2. 3:54

   Fejezet 2: So basically, the three of us, Nihal, El-Bana, Ahmed, Kwawegi, and myself. 307s · Speaker 2

   So basically, the three of us, Nihal, El-Bana, Ahmed, Kwawegi, and myself. And that is part of the work that we ask you to do. But before starting that work, you will need to read a bit and understand what is the link, what could be the lin…

3. 9:04

   Fejezet 3: So once again, there are points that we will discuss and the rest, the law response, they may be valid for a given country, in my case, in France. 94s · Speaker 1

   So once again, there are points that we will discuss and the rest, the law response, they may be valid for a given country, in my case, in France. But of course, those articles, they will not apply in other countries, sometimes not in other…

4. 10:38

   Fejezet 4: have any question first about this very general introduction? 303s · Speaker 2

   have any question first about this very general introduction? No, no particular question. Okay, so the questions we will ask during that first lecture is, why are we interested in connections between law and neuroscience? Then how we can wo…

5. 15:42

   Fejezet 5: to protect the human dignity. 257s · Speaker 1

   to protect the human dignity. And why are they regulations or laws to control the use of biological manipulations, biological testings, in general? The reason is really to protect human dignity, according to the legal system of each countri…

6. 20:00

   Fejezet 6: will come back to? 299s · Speaker 2

   will come back to? And how damaged is this person's brain? Of course, if the brain is damaged, you may infere that there will be some neurobiological consequences. So those are examples of questions that the law system may ask to neuroscien…

7. 25:00

   Fejezet 7: required to respect the right of physical integrity. 194s · Speaker 1

   required to respect the right of physical integrity. So you're not allowed to harm someone to obtain an evidence, to obtain a proof. This is very important, you know. In the case of biomedical expertise, and for us here, you must be sure th…

8. 28:15

   Fejezet 8: Yes. So, you mentioned that you are not allowed to harm the person to get the evidence. 301s · Speaker 2

   Yes. So, you mentioned that you are not allowed to harm the person to get the evidence. Yes. Like, how much is this a lot of different techniques? Sorry, sorry. How much? How much this is accurate? Because we see a lot of different techniqu…

9. 33:18

   Fejezet 9: So the free will, we were talking about the will of an individual, the free will of an individual, a sane individual, a healthy individual, is expressed through the decision they make. 305s · Speaker 2

   So the free will, we were talking about the will of an individual, the free will of an individual, a sane individual, a healthy individual, is expressed through the decision they make. And when you do an act, whatever it is, then you took a…

10. 38:32

    Fejezet 10: So, of course, in the worst case, you know, if a crime has been committed, then the accountability for that crime can be totally abolished for someone who is proved to have impaired mental faculties. 108s · Speaker 1

    So, of course, in the worst case, you know, if a crime has been committed, then the accountability for that crime can be totally abolished for someone who is proved to have impaired mental faculties. So, of course, you see that it's really …

11. 40:21

    Fejezet 11: I didn't quite understand the difference between criminal responsibility and civil responsibility. 309s · Speaker 2

    I didn't quite understand the difference between criminal responsibility and civil responsibility. Yeah, that is not really important here. But civil responsibility is to compensate prejudice that has been made to someone. You know, the cri…

12. 45:31

    Fejezet 12: And the question marks are real because it's not always true, as you will see. 170s · Speaker 1

    And the question marks are real because it's not always true, as you will see. But of course, if you go a bit deeper and you understand the mechanisms behind, if you can identify some real mechanisms that are impaired, then you have a furth…

13. 48:24

    Fejezet 13: Dear Professor. 288s · Speaker 2

    Dear Professor. Yeah. Landry, excuse me. I just have a question on the previous slide, please. So, because I've often heard about, let's say, psychiatric expertise during judicial expertise, meaning that their, let's say, professional advic…

14. 53:13

    Fejezet 14: Challenge. 184s · Speaker 3

    Challenge. That's the opposite. It can question or contradict other evidence in a case of when it's relevant to a legal proposition. For instance, when there are, you know, some, let's say, psychiatric expertise that has given an answer. An…

15. 56:17

    Fejezet 15: of, for instance, persons who are the most likely to respond to detoxification treatment. 82s · Speaker 2

    of, for instance, persons who are the most likely to respond to detoxification treatment. So that could be used in this case. Intervene by providing new methods for achieving legal objectives. For instance, by intervening on someone by impo…

16. 57:41

    Fejezet 16: such as future violence, for instance. 306s · Speaker 3

    such as future violence, for instance. And there are a lot of works at the moment about that. But honestly, neuroscience is not yet able to predict future behavior reliably enough to be used in a course to my knowledge at the moment. But it…

17. 1:02:47

    Fejezet 17: activity, but the direct activity of the neuronal populations. 303s · Speaker 1

    activity, but the direct activity of the neuronal populations. So as it's said here, it's possible to track the trajectories of activated neurons. However, the problem is still the same, because you don't really know, or you're not sure whe…

18. 1:07:50

    Fejezet 18: between groups, between schizophrenic patients, between schizophrenic patients and a healthy subject group. 124s · Speaker 1

    between groups, between schizophrenic patients, between schizophrenic patients and a healthy subject group. So those differences, they are real and they exist. And clearly the brain doesn't behave the same in schizophrenia and in healthy co…

19. 1:09:55

    Fejezet 19: You see what I mean? 301s · Speaker 2

    You see what I mean? So all the problem here is to. reconciliate the statistical evidence with the individual situation. And it's very often not possible. And this is, I told you at the beginning that sometimes law professionals, they are t…

20. 1:14:56

    Fejezet 20: You're trying to use different approaches. 302s · Speaker 1

    You're trying to use different approaches. level of analysis, molecular, cellular, behavioral, circuits, and so on, to see if those data, they all converge to the same conclusion. And only in that case, you can be confident about the conclu…

21. 1:20:09

    Fejezet 21: Okay, so now I want to go a bit deeper, not too much, but in the decision-making processes. 77s · Speaker 1

    Okay, so now I want to go a bit deeper, not too much, but in the decision-making processes. I have two slides with circuits just to make clear that these processes, decision-making, they depend on many different circuits and the activity of…

22. 1:21:27

    Fejezet 22: Okay? But the brain state of the individual will also contribute here to the decision calculation. 300s · Speaker 2

    Okay? But the brain state of the individual will also contribute here to the decision calculation. And this brain state is regulated by the motivation state of the individual that also depends on the outside world, you know, on the stimulus…

23. 1:26:27

    Fejezet 23: that this modified circuit will have an impact on areas that are involved in the control of emotions here for instance but we know then that the control of emotions will also regulate a lot the capacity to take decision okay so this is an example i see there is one comment in the chain oh yeah it's about okay so now we know that those circuits you know and particularly the secrets that converge to the amygdala they are important in uh decision making so one hypothesis here that is that chronic pain conditions they may also affect the functioning of the nervous system and why do i put this in parallel with this study of decision making and the role of the amygdala because chronic pain conditions they are accompanied with anxiety or anxio depressive behaviors in human and also in pre-clinical models in animals some chronic pain conditions some severe chronic pain conditions like algodystrophy fibromyalgia they are accompanied with changes in emotional state changes in cognitive abilities difficulty to discern the most appropriate choices in risky situation for instance changes in attention uh reduced capacity to make choices uh reduced capacity to make choices especially when uh the cognitive load or the sensory load is is high and at the end it's demonstrated that in animals chronic pain can alter decision making processes can alter the anticipation of pain i mean you're more um scared to have pain and then you adapt your behavior to avoid that pain and yeah pain anticipation and avoidance behavior so at the end these chronic pain conditions they are highly uh likely to modulate the secrets we were talking about before and in particular the activity of amygdala but they will clearly modulate the sensory perception they will also modulate the working memory by adding cognitive load they will modulate memory and they will modulate uh hypothalamic functions also so at the end they will change the way that amygdala is involved here in decision making processes so we may consider that for for the moment it's not taken into account at all but we may consider that someone who is in chronic pain conditions may take decisions that are biased you see that this is the hypothesis here in certain pathological conditions involving chronic pain this may lead like to impaired judgment in a subject and restriction of their autonomy and capacity for self-determination. 301s · Speaker 1

    that this modified circuit will have an impact on areas that are involved in the control of emotions here for instance but we know then that the control of emotions will also regulate a lot the capacity to take decision okay so this is an e…

24. 1:31:29

    Fejezet 24: that we can reasonably explore this possibility that has not been done really and see that it has legal consequences or not. 301s · Speaker 1

    that we can reasonably explore this possibility that has not been done really and see that it has legal consequences or not. But we may imagine that it has legal consequences, at least in some situation, which are to sign contracts, as I sa…

25. 1:36:31

    Fejezet 25: fibromyalgia you know those fibromyalgia patients they have pain in different parts of the body and it's a bit confusing for them now if you are talking about i mean pain they are symptoms you feel uh unpleasantness in some areas of the body if not and you're just not in the good mood then it's more like a depression but that has also consequences on decision making for sure you know and depression and pain they are closely related you know this is the first point i put here emotionless okay yeah thank you okay okay now the last question is how far is it important well it is important to uh that law and neuroscientists they discuss to protect fundamental rights of human to ultimately protect human dignity and the question is to adapt fundamental rights of human to new technologies that is to protect human dignity along with the development of new technology and also to consider the notion of consent even in cases where there are interventions on the brain we're not doing brain interventions too much at the moment but this is clearly something that will develop in the future and this is certainly very good to be able to intervene in the brain to manipulate some brain circuits for therapeutical purposes of course we must be sure that there is no side effects or very reduced side effect but the problem is to have guidelines you know that will allow to evaluate how much the consent is altered is altered if there is any intervention in the brain they are at the moment pharmacological modification in the brain if you take antidepressive drugs for instance clearly they are this is an intervention in the brain and this alters the consent for sure when someone in the is in a depressive state or is under antidepressive medication of course his consent is altered so these are example why the legal instruments they are important to protect uh fundamental rights and it's difficult because first there is no universal right as i said before it depends on the country then we are collecting lots of data about biology and human being when you do imaging or genetic screening or biological analysis data are collected so the question is what to do with those data Also is the idea that you must protect privacy and human rights. 299s · Speaker 2

    fibromyalgia you know those fibromyalgia patients they have pain in different parts of the body and it's a bit confusing for them now if you are talking about i mean pain they are symptoms you feel uh unpleasantness in some areas of the bod…

26. 1:41:31

    Fejezet 26: You know, the idea is to make, to increase your mental capacities and cognitive capacities by stimulating your brain. 306s · Speaker 1

    You know, the idea is to make, to increase your mental capacities and cognitive capacities by stimulating your brain. Honestly, it doesn't work at the moment, but it may well work in the future, at least to enhance some particular capacitie…

27. 1:46:38

    Fejezet 27: very clearly, the interpretation and conclusions are extremely different, even the questions you ask with these two methods, these two methods, they are very different, but here they don't make the difference, so we may use that article to allow some methods that are scientifically irrelevant, because they are not answering the right question. 228s · Speaker 1

    very clearly, the interpretation and conclusions are extremely different, even the questions you ask with these two methods, these two methods, they are very different, but here they don't make the difference, so we may use that article to …

28. 1:50:27

    Fejezet 28: some problems that may arise from these new developments. 304s · Speaker 2

    some problems that may arise from these new developments. When we talk about neuro-enhancement, it's not only manipulating physically the brain with waves or with electrons or whatever. It can be also the use of drugs like anxiolytics, anti…

29. 1:55:31

    Fejezet 29: to make the law they can just say look these are the consequences of the scientific development now you do whatever you … 260s · Speaker 2

    to make the law they can just say look these are the consequences of the scientific development now you do whatever you want with this but this is the decision of the society okay and that's it for today so i don't know if you have question…