11 Longfellow Road 69

0:00

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

put their name and organization in the chat in case people haven't been before

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

we won't do a full round of intros but that'd

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

be great and yeah i thought we'd start with the

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

um tim's review which as everyone knows

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the kind of consultation uh for that

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

was closed i think they i don't

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

know if it was the final numbers but i knew that kind of towards the end i'd already had about 40

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

000.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

responses or something.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So a lot of stuff to wade through there.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think probably quite a good bulk of that will be kind of individual responses

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

and things like that.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It sounds like they're planning on using AI to summarize stuff.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So hopefully people's points don't get lost.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It

1:00

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

sounds like they're kind of going to be doing a lot of work over the summer,

1:05

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but also promoting,

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I don't

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

know if people have heard about,

1:14

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but you can...

1:17

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

facilitate a workshop and send them some kind of

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

writer populations who

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

are interested in doing that.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It'd be great to hear if anyone is planning on doing that or has

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

done it.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But yeah,

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

also just good to hear if anyone has any sort of

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

intel or kind of thoughts and reflections on the

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

process or where they think it's headed really.

2:03

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Yeah, no huge intel and not a super

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

clear sense of where exactly it is going.

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But I imagine we'll talk about

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

maybe the Melbourne report gives some clues.

2:16

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It sounds like the interim report,

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

they had originally been saying it would come out this month,

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but it sounds like Pat McFadden said at the select committee this

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

morning that it's going to come out before summer recess.

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So it sounds more like mid -July.

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And yeah,

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

and then it sounds like they're planning quite a lot of different kinds of engagement,

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

including like they've talked about,

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I've had people mention to me that they're planning to do sort of like expert sessions

2:45

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

with the review group.

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Yeah.

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I also kind of get the sense that maybe the review group still hasn't met that many times.

2:53

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Yeah.

2:55

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

guess we have a degree in the

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

design process.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It does seem like they're kind of...

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

trying to kind of adopt principles much more than the government normally does

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

on it.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I suppose there's still a bit of a sense of there's going to be a report

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that goes to the Secretary of State and then the Secretary of State ultimately

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

is deciding what happens.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And then with kind of

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

coinciding with things,

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

mismatch

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

towards the end of that process in terms of what actually proposals

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

they take forward.

3:53

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But that's just more of a...

4:12

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So I was at the CPAG Scotland conference last

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

week.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

All the week before.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So I'm sure anybody else who was there can also chip

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

in.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But Stephen Timms was talking.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And what I took from that was that

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

he was intimating that there'd be an interim report in

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

July with a view to publishing proposals

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

before November.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So I don't know if that means in time

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

for decisions to be made.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

to inform the budget or what,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but that's the bit of information that we

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

got from him that I thought was potentially quite helpful.

5:06

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

and that's really useful.

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I'm riding roughshod over my own agenda here,

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but I think it relates to an interesting point around

5:16

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the UC review,

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

which we've heard they seem to be planning in

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

terms of timings for the next phase

5:26

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

of that to try and put some stuff in the autumn budget

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

for that as well.

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So it might be that.

5:33

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

That's just general plans for...

5:38

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

DWP trying to put a load of different bits in for the

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

autumn budget potential.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Anything

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

on that team's review?

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Tom?

5:59

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Tom Wardle from Marie Curie.

6:03

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I just posted in the chat that there's just an update from Marie

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S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Curie about the joint letter that went out

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S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

on stopping PIP reassessments for people with a terminal or

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S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

progressive life limiting condition.

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S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Yeah,

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S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

there was a response,

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S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but it was a very top -line one,

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S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

so there's further action planned on that.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

sounds like generally Stephen's been quite,

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

well,

6:40

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

you'd expect him to be fairly cagey about it.

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Any plans does seem to be pointing

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

towards the fact that there's meant to be a co -design

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

process with the group,

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

so decisions are kind of...

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

been made there so i don't think they're going to kind of be particularly open

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

about committing to much detail as yet

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

and yes

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

and jim i think they're thinking mid -july and then sometime

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

no one

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

has anything more say on the tims or people would

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

sort of move on to milburn slightly without wanting

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

to have

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

been working on the review uh but it might be good to some people's

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

reflections sort of they might want to sort of

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

in a more private setting then

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

from DWP.

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

If anyone else has any,

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

it may end up just

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

general.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Does anyone

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

have any thoughts?

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Has anyone managed to read the whole thing yet?

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It did say to do so at the start.

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Yeah,

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I'm

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Emily Andrews, I'm from the Learning and Work Institute and I would just say one reflection

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that I've had over the last week is that the review makes a lot of...

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

The fact that we don't have a system,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

which I thought was quite,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

you know, it kind of,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

it was a point that was well made.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

He's like, at the moment,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

what kind of often is

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

called system integration is really parallel play is

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

a term that he used.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And so he says,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

you know, so we need some sort of system was the

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

thing in the report.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But then what's interesting is that talking to people at

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

where is where does the youth employment system sit?

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It sits at MSA level,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

you know,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

at local level.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And you've got some places are delivering youth trailblazers and some of them aren't.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And, you know, you've got this real kind of patchwork across the country.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And of course,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the way that they're.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I would say this without DWP in the room.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I'd probably say it to them in the room.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

The way that the youth guarantee was commissioned has not

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

exactly, sorry,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

not the youth guarantee,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the youth trailblazers were commissioned is not necessarily promoting

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

of system integration and innovation because it was all things were needing to be

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

done quite quickly and the reporting requirements have had to kind of go up to DWP quite

9:46

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

quickly.

9:46

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So a lot of those,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

you know,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that system join up is quite hard to do in that commissioning environment.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But also I think it's worth noting that a lot of the local places that I've spoken

9:56

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

to don't feel that they've been particularly had a voice with.

10:00

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

in the Melbourne Review,

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

and they kind of want to make sure that they do,

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

because a lot of this is ultimately going to rely on them.

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I imagine that he's talking to some places and not others,

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but I just wondered if that's something that people were hearing and if that

10:13

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

chimes with what they know.

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S… Speaker 6 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Thanks.

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S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Sue?

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I sit on the Disability Benefits Consortium steering group and

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S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

we had a meeting yesterday.

10:29

S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I haven't read the whole report,

10:31

S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but my fellow policy,

10:34

S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

my fellow co -chair,

10:35

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I should say,

10:36

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Jeff Finister,

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

who many of you will know.

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

is wading his way through it and has drawn the conclusion that,

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

and as most people here will know,

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

he's steeped in this stuff.

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

He's drawn the conclusion that conditionality might be on the horizon

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

for PIP recipients.

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And whilst that might be for those younger

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

claimants under 22s,

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

there is inherent,

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I would argue,

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

inherent in that is the risk of a...

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

thin end of a wedge being established.

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Well that's just speculation.

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S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

The latter part is just speculation on my part.

11:28

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

You know,

11:29

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

kind of similar perspectives on the Alan Milburn review.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think there's an incredibly helpful direction of travel about a

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

whole systems joined up whole society approach,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

which I think is what is needed.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I'm actually responding to it by writing a blog or an essay,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

mini essay for the...

11:47

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

1 million futures substack that Alan Milburn has set up for people

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

who are steeped in this area to essentially put in contributions and

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

submissions and obviously they'll be vetted as to whether they're

12:00

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

good and relevant contributions.

12:02

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

There was some interesting language on social security,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

one which was positive and one which was slightly worrying.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

The first one...

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

was around the failures of the deficit -based approach,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but there was also quite a lot of language around social security as an investment in a tool,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

which is helpful.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But yeah,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think there is recognition that the way in which PIP

12:26

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

frames and the WCA frames health is

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

not helpful in terms of getting the right support to people at the right time in

12:35

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the right way.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And that's really helpful.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

The more frightening side of it was...

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

The good is that there's a recognition that there are lots of missed opportunities

12:45

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

for engaging with people within the system to get them connected

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

to the right support,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

particularly young people.

12:52

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

That's great,

12:53

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but the underlying potentiality of that is exactly what Sue just raised,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

which is the possibility of conditionality being built in for the under -22s,

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

additional conditionality.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So I think that's something that we need to look at carefully.

13:06

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I don't think that would be driven by Alan Melbourne himself.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think he's much more on why are we not providing these young people with

13:13

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the intensive whole society effort support that they need.

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S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but unfortunately he's not going to be the only player in this room he's just going to produce

13:21

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the report and it'll be interpreted in whatever way it is on the tims

13:25

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

review we did put in our evidence submission um based on our

13:29

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

experience of the transition from pip to adp but i

13:33

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

did wonder if

13:35

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

anyone was planning on doing the workshop in a box submission.

13:39

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It would be good to hear if organisations are thinking of doing that,

13:43

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

because I'm going to be quite stretched time -wise,

13:45

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

so I was keen to hear what others are thinking around that.

13:48

S… Speaker 6 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Thanks,

13:48

S… Speaker 6 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Thomas. Yeah,

13:52

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

it sounds like Sue's planning a couple of workshops

13:56

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

in a box.

13:57

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I'll touch base with her on that.

13:59

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

We've been sort of pondering it.

14:01

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

We did actually offer to host her.

14:04

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

workshop with welfare rights advisors previously kind of got turned down

14:08

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

so i don't

14:12

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

know if this is slightly outjoyed as a result of that or not but i think

14:29

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that there is

14:36

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

a

14:40

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

risk really particularly being quite pointed

14:44

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

with like some of the discourse and actually some of the sort of um

14:48

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the social

14:53

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

security system and you know like um quite unhelpful

14:58

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

comparisons between spending

15:01

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

times more on social security for young people than on employment

15:05

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

support when they're just completely different things with both

15:09

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

very legitimate purposes and things like that really so kind

15:14

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

of like quite concerned about those elements

15:19

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but kind of pleased that you know it's acknowledging the role of child poverty

15:23

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

within the issue.

15:26

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Thank

15:38

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

you.

15:38

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Yeah just a couple of quick reflections.

15:45

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I also have some concerns,

15:50

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

as Sue was highlighting.

15:52

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

My worry,

15:55

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think, is that we might have a completely different under -25s

15:59

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

benefit system,

16:00

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

which would in effect merge universal credit and PIP and

16:04

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

make it into a new young person's.

16:08

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

benefit of some kind,

16:09

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

which could contain different kinds of conditionality.

16:13

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

The other bit that worries me is although that it's

16:18

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

mentioned the demand side issues,

16:21

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I'm not quite sure whether they've got that right

16:25

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

in the context of what employers would need to

16:29

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

be doing in order to hire and

16:34

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

retain the

16:37

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

numbers of young people that are regarded as

16:41

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

being problematic under the current system by the Melbourne review.

16:45

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

There was no mention in the review at all that I could see about reasonable

16:49

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

adjustments that employers might have to make.

16:51

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And in the context of AI and the

16:55

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

impact of AI on entry -level jobs,

16:57

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I just wonder what the broader strategy is for that part

17:02

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

of the labour market,

17:03

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

because that seems to me to be complete.

17:06

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

hole in the whole idea,

17:09

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

really, that you could end up by changing the benefit system,

17:13

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but at the same time,

17:14

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

there's no jobs for people to go into.

17:15

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But I might be misinterpreting,

17:18

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

so I'd be interested to hear other people's views on that.

17:21

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Thanks.

17:22

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Yeah,

17:24

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

certainly very concerned that conditionality

17:28

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

feels like the easiest lever to pull,

17:31

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

and the one they have the most direct influence on,

17:35

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but not put.

17:36

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

probably not the most important by any stretch.

17:38

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Scott?

17:40

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I'm Scott.

17:44

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Scott Compton from Action for Children.

17:46

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So I think our immediate

17:51

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

response to the interim report was pretty positive.

17:54

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think on the big picture stuff,

17:57

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

it gets a lot right.

17:58

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It makes a really compelling case.

18:01

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Yeah,

18:04

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

really welcome to at least see that emphasis on the demand side.

18:09

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

even if clearly there are still gaps there.

18:11

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Where I think we take

18:16

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

issue the most is in that welfare chapter.

18:19

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And I think my biggest

18:24

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

critique I felt reading it was that it does this

18:29

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

idea of perverse incentives in the system.

18:32

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It's doing all of the heavy lifting there.

18:36

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And it was quite jarring where in the earlier in the report,

18:40

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

they did a really good chapter.

18:41

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And there's that complimentary report inside the mind of a need as well that

18:45

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that sort of centers lived experience.

18:47

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But none of that was present in the welfare chapter.

18:51

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It didn't feel at all like they'd

18:56

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

done much talking to disabled young people who

19:00

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

were going through the UC health and the PIP systems.

19:04

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

navigating that,

19:05

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the overwhelming sort of challenges

19:09

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

they face in getting support and just how difficult it is to access.

19:13

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So all of these kind of sort of economic incentives are

19:17

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

sort of doing all the work there.

19:19

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So I think,

19:22

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

you know, we're quite keen to push the

19:26

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

review to,

19:28

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

you know,

19:29

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

just to try and understand what they are doing.

19:32

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

over the summer you know to what extent they're going to be speaking to

19:36

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

young people young disabled people with experience of the welfare system

19:41

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

because it doesn't feel very present at the moment and that

19:46

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that whole argument I think you know they make some sensible points about the binary

19:51

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

nature of the system the fact that you know young people are sort of left without any

19:55

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

contact that's all reasonable stuff but the idea that

19:59

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

kind of

20:00

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

all of these young people are being kind of incentivised to claim

20:06

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

sickness benefits because it means

20:10

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that they get more money with less requirements.

20:12

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I just don't see how that is being borne out of scale.

20:16

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And then,

20:18

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

yeah, I totally agree on the conditionality side.

20:20

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

That does seem like the direction of travel over kind of classic

20:27

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

cuts, if you like.

20:28

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It was encouraging,

20:29

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think Milburn said on the Today programme that morning that,

20:33

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

you know,

20:35

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the way to reduce the welfare bill is getting young people into us.

20:39

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So hopefully we're moving out of that space.

20:41

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But I think as a previous speaker said,

20:43

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

you know, ultimately it's not down to him and the Secretary of State will take what he wants

20:48

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

from this review and other reviews that are happening.

20:51

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But again,

20:53

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

my biggest issue with the conditionality thing is...

20:59

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

They're talking a lot about the Netherlands,

21:01

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

aren't they?

21:02

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And they're looking internationally to these other systems,

21:06

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but these are systems that just exist with such different infrastructure

21:12

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

around them that enable those.

21:14

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Yes, there might be higher expectations,

21:19

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but they exist in a much more supportive environment.

21:23

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think

21:27

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the emphasis on participation is interesting.

21:33

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but they only seem to be really interested

21:37

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

in work as opposed to the

21:41

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

value in a whole range of different types of participations,

21:46

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

whether that might be volunteering,

21:48

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

supported internships,

21:50

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

training, education.

21:51

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Ultimately,

21:52

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

while it's a report on needs,

21:55

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

it's very much framed around work,

21:57

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

and that's particularly concerning,

21:58

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think, for disabled people.

22:08

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

in the welfare section how it does acknowledge

22:12

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

some of the things you'd want it to acknowledge like the fact that there will

22:16

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

be young people who can't work and it acknowledges like

22:20

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the purpose of PIP is to cover extra

22:24

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

costs and isn't a work -based thing but then sort

22:29

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

of proceeds to gloss over both of those points quite quickly after having made them

22:33

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

really.

22:33

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Yeah I think it's kind

22:39

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

of right to much harder

22:44

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

on those things really.

22:48

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Yeah, I agree that they get most of the drivers and

22:52

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

things like that right.

22:53

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But yeah,

22:55

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think where we are a bit more element is that the framing

23:00

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

and the benefits stuff does hint at the kind of policy conclusion of

23:04

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

switching spending from financial benefit support onto employment

23:08

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

support, which,

23:10

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

yeah,

23:12

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think, I mean,

23:13

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think the answer to this stuff is probably investment in employment support,

23:17

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but you just...

23:19

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

By switching away from benefit spending,

23:21

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

you're kind of assuming that people will

23:25

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

move into employment and have their incomes covered that

23:29

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

way. Especially if you're talking about people who are inactive for

23:33

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

health reasons,

23:34

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that's going to be a much,

23:35

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

much longer journey for a lot of people.

23:38

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And it seems like there's a possibility

23:42

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that that would mean living on lower incomes,

23:45

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

which...

23:47

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

which is going to be very difficult if that is what the policy ends up being.

23:51

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And yeah,

23:53

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I agree with Scott.

23:53

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I'd like to have seen a bit more around other kinds of participation

23:58

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

rate.

23:59

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

One thing that we found in our NEATS report is that when you look

24:03

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

at the UK compared to countries that have low NEAT rates,

24:07

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the entire difference is that they have more young people

24:11

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

in education,

24:11

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

in vocational education in particular.

24:13

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

We have quite similar rates of young people in work.

24:19

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I don't think the report really frames things in that way.

24:22

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It's really about work,

24:23

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

isn't it?

24:23

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So kind of looking into the realities of that a bit more

24:28

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

would have been nice.

24:29

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But yeah,

24:30

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I mean, overall, not super down.

24:33

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think a good job of what they come

24:37

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

up with for the next one.

24:38

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

There's a couple of things there that are concerning.

24:47

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

um yeah just to just to briefly add i mean i definitely agree with everything that was said about this of

24:51

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

helpful wider framing although i did only read the welfare section i have to make

24:56

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

even though we got told not to um i think yeah

25:00

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I thought what was in the other positive thing I think was what there was sort of implication

25:04

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that like there was a kind of acknowledgement that essentially like the work search

25:08

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

conditionality for people on the intensive regime is kind of too much but obviously there was this kind of like

25:12

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

as others have mentioned there was a kind of implicit also I guess argument

25:16

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that there wasn't enough conditionality for disabled people.

25:20

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

And then I think the other things we were concerned by was like,

25:23

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

yeah, I would agree that the sort of the comparison between the sort of the language around

25:27

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

incentives and the kind of the section where it kind of compared how much people would

25:31

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

get with PIP plus UC Health versus like work or

25:35

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

kind of like just compared to the standard allowance did sort of seem to be potentially laying

25:39

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the ground for some kind of cut or changes to the rates or something.

25:45

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

and the other yeah the other bit that we were quite concerned about was the other section about this

25:49

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

sort of assessment process where it talked a bit about sort of it's suddenly like it kind of maybe gave the

25:53

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

impression that there'd been a bit more political involvement in that or just suddenly all

25:57

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the footnotes disappeared and it was just these assertions about like face -to -face assessments

26:01

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

will be actually kind of help it kind of implying that that would that

26:06

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

was like part of what had gone wrong was that there weren't enough face -to -face assessments um

26:10

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

so yeah and this sort of language around like

26:13

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I don't know,

26:13

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the tightness or toughness of assessments was also a bit of a concern.

26:16

S… Speaker 3 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But yeah.

26:18

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Yeah,

26:20

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

and there's some stuff there.

26:21

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think about work coaches as well,

26:28

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I think.

26:32

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

I'm conscious that we're going to some degree

26:36

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

repeat the conversation we've had in 15 minutes' time.

26:40

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But obviously,

26:42

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

we need to kind of hear people's

26:48

S… Speaker 5 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

thoughts.

26:49

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

But I think it has been useful to kind of probably cover it in a slightly more

26:53

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

open...

26:54

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

It's probably

26:59

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

worth us moving swiftly on.

27:02

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Does anyone have any

27:06

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

employment insurance?

27:10

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Were you

27:14

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

going to talk a bit about that?

27:18

S… Speaker 2 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Yes,

27:19

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

please.

27:19

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Just a quick update.

27:21

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

The Women's Budget Group met Debbie

27:26

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Abrahams,

27:26

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the chair of the Work and Pension Select Committee,

27:29

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

to express some concerns about the unemployment insurance proposal,

27:34

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

which was in the last

27:38

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

year's green paper,

27:39

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

Pathways to Work,

27:41

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but has seemed to go a bit silent since then.

27:45

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So we wanted just to try and see if there was anything else

27:49

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that we could wiggle out of her and other

27:53

S… Speaker 1 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

people.

27:53

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So our concern is that with

27:58

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

the abolition of contributory or rather new style

28:02

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

employment support allowance for people with long term conditions,

28:05

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that would erode the access to independent incomes

28:10

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

for women.

28:11

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So that's a particular women's budget group concern,

28:14

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

but obviously there are also concerns from a disability perspective as well.

28:18

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

So Debbie Abrahams did

28:22

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

promise to talk to Stephen Timms informally

28:27

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

and did say that some of the parts

28:31

S… Speaker 4 (11 Longfellow Road 69)

that were in the green paper had been dropped.

11 Longfellow Road 69

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